Planning some routes and trips for the spring and am going with some less able chaps.

Was looking at Wales. To my mind something like Barry knows best is a Green Run based on ski gradings. Is that a fair benchmark for planning my trips for anyone that's ridden it? I'm assuming that as long as I avoid blacks the guys will be OK or do blacks have chicken runs and so on?

Green/Blue: usually ok for total beginners, few are actually fun if you're good (Brechfa for example is actually quite fun yet fine for a total beginner)

Red: anything from very tame and rollable to highly likely to kill you.

Black: anything from very tame and rollable to highly likely to kill you.

Better off talking to riders as MTB grading is a bit of a joke and one centre's black is another's red. And sometimes a trail is black cause of the amount of climbing or length, sometimes because it's technical.

Well that's a useful system then!

These are the guys I ski with so I'd like a few surprises for them (they are expert skiers and like to surprise me the bastards)

they only seem to be graded relevant to the other trails at that location. For example the red trail at Sherwood pines in no way compares to either of the red loops at Whinlatter.

It does worry me that the Forestry Commission cannot work out some sort of standard measure though. I can imagine someone who has only ridden at Sherwood thinking ' I can easily do a red' and coming a bit unstuck somewhere like Whinlatter (especially in the wet).

the need for trail centers to have a black run annoys me.
thetford for example

To be honest I don't want anyone getting hurt and they are completely green but brave so they will try anything but probably come unstuck. I suppose we will go to Afan although I'm told it's a little dull.

IMBA UK Trail Grades

the thing you have to look out for when comparing MTB trails grading and ski run grading is that in ski resorts runs are graded purely on difficulty where as MTB trails are difficulty AND length. a long trail might not be particularly demanding technically but requires a good level of fitness so would be classified black, whereas some red routes which are short but fairly technical.

but as mentioned above it also vaires on each trail centre, grading is not compared to other trail centres, rather the trails available at that particular centre.

So a bunch of fit novices full of bravado but with no skill – Where do I take them?

I suppose we will go to Afan although I'm told it's a little dull.

I don't think it'll be dull for beginners…or anyone really if they've not been before.

BTW, IIRC the ratings of the routes at CyB don't match what's on the website so red and black do seem a bit interchangeable.

http://mbwales.com/en/content/cms/Centres/Coed_y_Brenin/Coed_y_Brenin.aspx

Sounds like it would make sense to have two grades for each trail, a fitness grade and a difficulty/danger grade. You could call them legs and balls. For example some trails you might need big balls but only small legs, and vice versa for others. Only metaphorical though, no comparing in the car park.

As stated, there is little or no consistency between centres. Nothing in Wales is stronger than Barry's really. Personally I would not take beginners to CdB because I think the rockiness is inclined to make beginners lose their flow. Afan would be ideal – even the "blacks" can be rolled through with a modicum of ability. Ditto Llandegla. Nant Y Arian is my fave, also perfect for all levels.

All the "safe" stuff is exciting if you add speed – so anywhere that encourages flow and gets them flying will be popular and they will not find it dull. Afan would get my vote for all-round fun.

Be brave and go up to the pub (The Hall) at Glyncorrwyg (sp?) – a bit intimidating at first but they are a funny bunch of guys up there when you get to know them.

Nothing in Wales is stronger than Barry's really.

Well I really disagree with that! Potential for pain is worse on most places and def more skill required IMO at both Afan and CyB trails.

There's duller places to ride than Afan lol!

Although they're all red, The Wall and Penhydd are not quite as hard as Whites Level. If I was taking enthusiastic "Greens" I'd ride either or both Wall and Penhydd depending on fitness.

An enthusiastic green will survive whites but it has some unavoidable steps up around the 10"-1ft mark and some twisty broadwalk in places. I don't like to punish my more green riders so avoid whites initially.

I tend to agree that fast flowing tracks are likely to be better for what I want. Ideally I want these guys to get into MTB not break themselves and never go again.

Afan seems like a good option.

Are the steps on whites nicely launchable high speed or slow speed wheelie drops or arse off the back switchback things off camber and rooty??

Just to get a feel for the place..

i think a trail center is ideal as you get a funfair ride if that makes sense but all centers encourage you to ride faster and thats where the trouble starts 🙂

whites is xc not dh.

does that help?

With my recent record of bottling it in the cold I might be best off taking them to Swinley!!

Pretty much all trail centres are deisgned to be ridden by a wide range of abilities. There are a few bits of black run at Whites Level that would give a total novice difficulty but it's all rollable/walkable if you aren't too confident.

At FC trail centres there is a new "double orange" grade for stuff that will hurt you if you're unskilled or under-confident (freeride parks, jump areas etc), and I'd say that's the only definite grade to look out for.

Penhydd is the only Afan trail I'd take beginners on though if OK on that then try The Wall expecting a fair amount of bottling.

This has been a fantastic help, thanks chaps. I think I'm clear on these gradings now.

The steps on Whites mosty have alternative lines. They are small jumps if you want them though. Some of them are a stretch to roll slowly. None are the steep rooty/rocky/switchbacky kind of technical.

Doesnt do much to help minorites get into MTBing does it? Whites Level, Black trail etc, no wonder there are so few non-white middle class riders on the trails.

i think swinley is a good option. a nice controlled ride that is familiar

Sorry just one other thing. So what are the main selling points of let's say Afan over something like a loop around the Surrey Hills? I went to The Red kite place years ago and found it boggy and a bit samey if I'm honest.

I am really green on UK riding as I've generally gone local (ish) or pissed off to France for big Mountains.

A loop at Afan will be a bit like having all the downhill bits as good as Barry's or Yogurt Pots (without the yogurt) – more smiles per mile. On the other hand the scenery on the Surrey Hills is better.

Afan is 100% hard stone based stuff – it's proper all weather. Penhydd and the wall are starting to suffer from old age a bit and one part of penhydd gets closed a lot.

Maybe look at Brechfa as it's all super flowy. Green/Blue is painfully easy yet still fun and super flowy. You can always warm up on that, pop down the road to the pub for lunch and literally round the corner is the red graded trail – again super flowy but fun and 100% chicken runs.

You'd get bored of Brechfa if you rode it every week but for a one time hit, it's proper fairground ride of guaranteed satisfaction IMO.

I've taken a few beginners round Penhydd and we have a great time although usually a few pointers on tackling really tight hairpins are needed for hidden valley and the like. As others say, there's nothing there you can't roll over but the challenge comes with increased speed.

It usually feels like a proper long ride to them, you get the great view at the top of sidewinder and except for near the start, barely any technical climbing that would knock their confidence too much.

I love this forum it's a mine of useful information at times.

IMO they're ok as a rule of thumb but tend to be relative to the centre itself and are difficult to use to compare across all centres.

I was riding through Macc Forest last week and came across a DH course called 'The Main Line' it had a sign which described the course as Double Black/Very Severe Grade…It ended with 'Over-estimating your ability may result in severe injury or death' made me chuckle

I'd take some enthusiastic novice type riders to somewhere like Cwm Carn or Llandegla. So long as they are pretty fit and won't be mullered by the climbs from the car parks.
Penmachno would also be quite good, I think.

If I was a newcomer, I think the rockier trail centres would put make me hesitate loads.

Yeah, I agree that for somewhere like Thetford to have the 'black'and the 'red' is a bit of a joke and it's difficult to gauge whether a grade at one place matches the same grade at another in terms of technicality/fitness requirement.

Afan is a long way to go for the first time though…

Why not try Quantocks, as its easy to navigate (what goes down has to go back on the ridge) and the views can be amazing!

Or CymCarn? Hefty technical climb, but not too technical, followed by some cracking secions back to the car ( if it has to be South Wales)

"So a bunch of fit novices full of bravado but with no skill"

Landegla red, is perfect for that. When they get get used to that, cautiously take them on the "black" which is like a red at most other centres.

IMO, The Raven is too hard to be a red, both in effort required and tech. It's mainly the ginormous steep berms you cannot easily avoid flying into them and they are scary. And what about the comedy mud downhill section that cannot be avoided? It may not be a non-stop boulder field, but The Raven is proper black IMO.

Dragon's Back at CyB has bits I find quite troubling (parts of the Addams Family sections) and I consider them technically approaching Black, but mostly I would say the whole place is at the trickier end of red due to its overall boulderyness.

The climb at CwmCarn (red) is perhaps the only trail centre climb I've done that still gives me trouble. Long may it last.

+1 for CwmCarn, the climb is loooong but the payoff is great fun.

Does it really matter if the centres aren't that consistent? It would be almost impossible to make them so. I thought part of the skill/fun of mountain biking is dealing with the unexpected. I'm not advocating putting 6 foot drop offs on green routes, but this all seems to be another sign of the sport being sanitised.

Yes, greens and blues need to be easy to get beginners interested (and we've all been beginners at some point), and yes blacks should be tough. But it doesn't mean the black at Centre A needs to be the same as the black at Centre B. If you aren't capable of looking at a map and working out if you are / aren't capable of doing a, for example, 15 mile ride, you probably shouldn't be out there in the first place.

"part of the skill/fun of mountain biking is dealing with the unexpected"

True, but by extension of that arg, maybe grading should be abolished? No, grading is useful if it is simple:

This trail is easy enough for novices (blue)
This trail will test fully competent riders (black)
All other trails are sort of in-the-middle (red)

IMO, most Welsh centres are graded OK according to that. Llandegla's gradings are just wrong IMO.

Whether you can ride 15 miles is going to vary depending on whether it's 15 miles of towpath, or 15 miles of steep climb and techy descent.

The main trouble with inconsistent gradings is as's been said up the page- someone rides a piss-easy red and thinks "I'm fine with reds" then does Nevis Red and smashes themselves into 10 million pieces. And then, the lawyers come out to play and the landowners get nervous, and trail features start getting flattened…

I think our grading system is buggered to be honest but it's something that's worth having and doing right.

Hmmm – I've always thought the FC grading was simply:

Green – this is the easiest trail at this location
Red – this is the medium trail at this location
Black – this is the hardest trail at this location

I don't think there was any intention to "standardize" them across trail centres, which makes perfect sense to me…