I know there are a few trail building groups around on this forum so wanted to find out how you went about setting it up. Up here we had a trail building/ maintenance group that met every couple of weeks to work on the trails. A few months ago the Forestry Commission (FC) suddenly decided that we were not covered for insurance purposes and stopped us meeting up. There is now very little work being carried out on the tracks meaning they are getting worse, and after the winter we had, the trails could do with some TLC.
Despite contacting the Forestry Commission on numerous occassions to ask for an update or solution (which they promised would be dealt with quickly), there is no solution on the horizon. As far as the group knows, the FC have said if one of their paid members joins us during our trail maintenance then we will be covered but none are willing to give up their Saturday morning lie in. I keep reading posts from other groups scattered around the country (e.g. Glentress, Stainburn, Lee Quarry) and was just wondering how those groups kept going in the face of beaurocratic tape and paperwork?
We have a small group of eager volunteers willing to give up some time to repair the trails but we are not allowed to get on with it. It feels that the FC almost don't want us to use their land and the hope by letting the trails degrade that people will lose interest. I won't say where the trails are for the moment, but it is a centre that receives regular slating on various forums, including here. We want to do something about it to make the trails better, but what can we do?

Advice requested STW- let me know your experiences! Silly answers are welcome to cheer me up, but any suggestions about weeing in their shoes/ wellies are unlikely to be constructive…

Sounds frustrating.

I trailbuild with SingletrAction.
As I understand it we have third party insurance cover for when we are digging, the policy is paid for by FC.

Where do you do your trailbuilding?

EDIT see this thread for some discussion about insurance etc. http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/lee-quarry-funding#post-1613700

If I were you I'd get building some extremely shonky doubles over a footpath, that should get their attention. 😉 Either that or try and make a sympathetic contact with the FC – do any of their local rangers ride, or have any MTB experience?

Down here in Bristol we get our group insurance through BTCV

http://shop.btcv.org.uk/shop/level1/21/level

and the FC's policy is that they inspect what we've made as part of their routine checks on the trail. If it passes muster, they're happy with it. It's all very loose and informal but we try and build stuff to the best standard possible, and we're effectively revamping an old trail rather than putting in a new one which probably helps.

EDIT based on that other thread: Not to take issue with Cheeky's knowledge, but I'm 90% sure that BTCV insurance (through Zurich) is still available to new groups and not just existing ones.

More edits: I'm guessing from your post history that this is up in Scotland – FE there have a terrible reputation for working with mountain bikers, but IMO that shouldn't stop you from trying.

Cheers for the link- some interesting reading in there. From what I understand, you guys seem to have got insurance through an old policy that noone else can get now? And the other key point is that any work, no matter how big, needs someone in a responsible position to sign off on the work to fit in with regulation?
Ever the optimist, I hope that the inability to find sufficient insurance by the FC is the reason we can't get out there and maintain the trails, and that there is a solution around the corner. Unfortunately, the FC seem slow to get anything done. Talking to a few others in the former trail building group we are going to try and get a few people together for a meeting and get some ideas going to get it back up and running.

I won't say at the moment where it is but it's on Forestry Commission land in Scotland. I know there are a few people on here that are from the local area and some of them are connected to the FC. I don't want to make too many enemies!

I've been thinking of just strapping a folding shovel to my Camelback and filling in the huge braking bumps at Pines on the sly. In some places they're almost enough to have you over the bars.

Sherwood Pines badly needs some rider input to the trails. Forming a maintenance group could be one way to do this – it's worked fairly successfully in Bristol.

It's not Sherwood Pines!

Mr Agreeable, how did you go about getting funding for teh BTCV insurance? I just had a look through and the premium starts at roughly £120 i guess, more if you use powered machinery. We have a 'whacker' which we use at the end of each session if the trail needs it to help it bed in. I see the BTCV do grants up to £120 which might be worth looking into. We are only a small group so even if we split it between the group it is asking a bit much for a volunteer group to be paying effectively to help out the FC!

We have been getting rider feedback here so we have a few ideas for improving trails in the future,and there are obviously a few more people who are interested in getting more involved.

I set up a bank account for the group with Cooperative to make things a bit more "official", then went round the local bike shops, with cap in hand. There are loads to choose from in Bristol and more than a few of them were happy to sub us (and still do). We also get some donations via Paypal from riders who'd like to help out but don't have time.

You should be able to raise a couple of hundred quid without too much trouble (especially if you have some way of giving sponsors exposure, like a website) but a first step has got to be getting the Forestry on-side, no point in having insurance if they won't let you do any work.

you could just go and do the work on the sly.
i'd never do that, of course. if the rangers won't get out of bed on a saturday morning ( and why should they, if unpaid? ), that might be a great time to do some work eh?

Ah, thought that might have been how you did it. Where I am there are 2 bike shops. One i am linked with and teh second is linked with another centre (with a shop on-site). Healthy competition but i doubt they would fork out much to support the opposition!

you could just go and do the work on the sly
I agree, but it doesn't help us in the long run with getting permission. I can see actions like that causing more trouble than being helpful. Not to say we aren't trying to use ( 😉 ) the forest, but we can't work on the signposted trails, which is what receives all the negative focus on places like here

> but it is a centre that receives regular slating on various forums, including here.<

Ae?

Perhaps Glentress is sucking up all the cash?

Heather Bash – Member
> but it is a centre that receives regular slating on various forums, including here.<

Ae?

Perhaps Glentress is sucking up all the cash?

Probably

Always has done since day 1 of the Stanes project.

Now that they are all under the same "district" manager it will be interesting to see how much longer the volunteer brigade over there(GT)can be maintained.

Now that the "contractor" under whose insuranec the volunteers have been operating has other "priorities" working for free and taking up valuable family time it is not surprising.

The trails have to be "maintained" for only 5yrs under the terms of the EU partnership, once that ends then the trails may suffer.

There is an ongoing inspection and repair regime but with onlt 2 people in the team(contractor)not a lot gets done in a day. On the D&G side these guys have 3 Stanes to look after. Until recently Kirry had it`s own team, I believe this is being shrunk under costing pressures.

defaultslipper – Member
Ah, thought that might have been how you did it. Where I am there are 2 bike shops. One i am linked with and teh second is linked with another centre (with a shop on-site). Healthy competition but i doubt they would fork out much to support the opposition!

I reckon it would be in all the shops interset to get together and solve this issue, after all they all stand to lose out if riders stop coming to the area.

Ae, G&G, DG2, CD Cycles, MRP in Dalbeattie all have and should be interested.

If it's FC land you are on a hiding to nothing…they really aren't keen on getting anything new off-the-ground that is volunteer-led – it is their way or no way…and they will deliberately go out their way to make sure any volunteer interest is destroyed.

Not the best suggestion but can you go in and do it on the sly? Or better yet, could you not get involved and when someone else gets in and starts doing repairs you contact the landowner to ask if you can get involved…

FC land is really annoying – they get a lot of cash to do the initial build but seem to have no regard for on-going maintenance so it just gets left..and left…and left…eventually they will scrape money from somewhere and make a repair…then it goes back to being left. There are very very few FC locations where the right people are in a position to do anything…which is a real shame.

Might be worth a chat with the SMBDC Project Manager?

Heather Bash – Member
Might be worth a chat with the SMBDC Project Manager?

Who/What?

Trekster seems to have nailed the situation- there are a couple of people who are employed to repair the trails, but they are employed by a company more orientated to the DH side of the sport. As they are involved in events, the majority of their work focuses on keeping the DH trails in good nick as that is where they generate their income from. Very few riders using the XC trails will have heard of the company or used it.

they really aren't keen on getting anything new off-the-ground that is volunteer-led

i am talking about a volunteer group they helped to set up at the end of last year. They seemed happy enough with what we have been doing for about 6 months. We can't really go and do it on the sly- to move the material into position we would need to get wheelbarrows and spades up to teh site. Even if we did that the surface would need to be compressed. We had been using a 'whacker' but we would have to hire one ourselves. I don't think the FC would be happy with us leaving a mound of loose gravel across the trails, and if anyone had an accident we would be liable. I hate to talk about health and safety compensation stuff but unfortunately there are a lot of people who would cause trouble, and by doing the work on the sly we would not have any insurance!

Might be worth a chat with the SMBDC Project Manager

sorry what is that and what would they do? Do you know who that is for this region?

Trekster, who is the current district manager who overlooks all of the trails? We were talking about who would be best to contact, and we weren't sure who the head-honcho is for these things. At least if we tried to contact the top of teh chain we could figure out whether the plans to get the volunteer group up and running again was failing because it hadn't reached their desk or because someone lower down the chain is stopping us.

Cheers for the help STW- much appreciated!

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/MTBstrategycomplete.pdf/$FILE/MTBstrategycomplete.pdf

The guy thats runs this is supposed to be setting up 'development clusters' Whether they / he will make a tuppenny damn worth of difference to what happens back here in the real world is anybodys guess. I'd echo Treksters advice – form a strategic alliance with bike shop dudes et al and arrange to meet the man from the wee chart below. He'll probably be expecting your call 😉

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCSstructure.pdf/$FILE/FCSstructure.pdf

WARNING – you are entering a potential world of pain

Hi defaultslipper,

I've been involved with two such groups, one at Tunstall and one at Thetford and have "enjoyed the full gambit of angst, frustration and upset at dealing with the FC. If you want to touch base to discuss, rant or simply marvel at the lunacy of it all please feel free to ocntact me here … http://www.timbermtb.org via the forum or email to berm_banditATtimbermtbDOTorg

Trekster, who is the current district manager who overlooks all of the trails? We were talking about who would be best to contact, and we weren't sure who the head-honcho is for these things. At least if we tried to contact the top of teh chain we could figure out whether the plans to get the volunteer group up and running again was failing because it hadn't reached their desk or because someone lower down the chain is stopping us.

Cheers for the help STW- much appreciated!

form a strategic alliance with bike shop dudes et al and arrange to meet the man from the wee chart below. He'll probably be expecting your call

Yeah they will be reading this with interest. waves to Gibb 😉

First stop is to work up a plan to consult with and get all the shops working on this. Get their take on the position, all depends if they do any market research on what/where and who their customers are and what they want or need etc.

Then the first port of call is across the road from the shop, Bill Meadows unless he now has an office on Edin Rd or moved to the Borders. Think he has responsibility for Borders and D&G since the revamp earlier in the year(or last?). Bill is very approachable but you need a cast iron case. As you will have read in all the papers and the news the Scottish Exec has a funding problem and there is a recruitment freeze on + budgets are being slashed drastically(so my wife tells me, a civil servant)

defaultslipper

When are you next in the shop?

Trekster, today tomorrow and Saturday if you are about. Alternatively we are running a club ride Sunday evening if you fancy coming along? I have just been speaking to Alan from Scottish Cycling so I guess you are probably busy today but let me know if you want to come in and have a chat over a coffee. We need all the advice we can get!
I thought Gibb was in charge or access and community involvement so assumed he would be interested in this thread. I even have a sneaky suspicion that he often reads on here, and while i have never had any problems i didn't realise he would be the best person to deal with the volunteer group. It was suggested that Andy Hopkins might be dealing with some aspect of it but as he is away on holiday we will have to wait.

I don't mind helping to set all of this up, but this does feel a lot of hassle for something that has been running previously with no issues!
Berm Bandit, would that be TIMBER then? I rode down at Thetford for a few years but have seen first hand the damage the popularity has caused! May just send you an email, thanks for the offer!

EDIT based on that other thread: Not to take issue with Cheeky's knowledge, but I'm 90% sure that BTCV insurance (through Zurich) is still available to new groups and not just existing ones.

Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong 🙂 Never thought I was the fount of all knowledge, honest.

I don't mind helping to set all of this up, but this does feel a lot of hassle for something that has been running previously with no issues!

Common situation with FE, I'm not having a dig at them but we've had it on a number of occassions. You talk to one person, agree, sort everything out and build it. Then someone else comes along with a different view, time passes and their standpoint changes etc and it all / part has to come out / been cancelled / no longer allowed.

WARNING – you are entering a potential world of pain

Yep, couldn't agree more. But we / volunteers have achieved things. I think there could be more achieved, more easily, with a more positive approach from FE but hey, they've umpteen other things to do too.

just wondering how those groups kept going in the face of beaurocratic tape and paperwork?

Lots of people don't. The frustration and long timescales see a high number of volunteers burnt out by it all. I suspect having a thick skin, not going off on one (at the wrong moment with the wrong people, I'm no saint) and just trying to be positive and constructive all help. Or maybe I'm just daft 😉

Don't underestimate the funding crisis. I expect absolutely bugger all cash, staff time, inclination will be given by FE to trail building projects in the foreseeable future (I deal with a couple of local authorities through work). However, this *might* be an opportunity for us to show what can be achieved without everyone defaulting to "get the contractors" / "pros" in. I have nothing against them (pros) but all we (volunteers) cost is hardcore and tools and we achieve plenty (ish) without the overheads, profit and heavy plant).

I gave a talk at IMBA's last AGM which touched on issues volunteer groups can have with FE (and the "MTB community" 😉 ). It didn't gete widely publicised but can be found here:

http://www.imba.org.uk/uploads/misc/SingletrAction_Seminar.pdf

Don't know if it's of any interest or use. Just my opinion as well.

Best of luck with it and if I can help or you want to talk about stuff feel free to get in touch.

You might be worth asking IMBA for financial support to cover the first year (or whatever) of the required insurance? We're lucky in that FE pay for ours 😎 They ain't all bad 😉

Tim
chairman@singletraction.org.uk

Tim..is Karl still top man @ imba? All the above is on his old patch 😐
He and I have done some volunteer stuff in the past, pre Stanes before the rug was pulled.

WARNING – you are entering a potential world of pain

Yep, couldn't agree more. But we / volunteers have achieved things. I think there could be more achieved, more easily, with a more positive approach from FE but hey, they've umpteen other things to do too.

Very true and possibly at the heart of the matter. Anything that "volunteers" take on still has to go through the formal path followed by all other forest operations. With the advent of CDM regs and how they are interpreted also impacts on "volunteers" and how they are covered by ins. It has all moved away from the romantic notion that we can just turn up in t-shirts, shorts and trainers etc, safety is now considered the "big issue"

AndyH is a one man band and has all the designing,reports, maint scheds,future development, digging ect to do for all the Stanes. To then have to spend even more time sorting out stuff for volunteers might become something that his bosses and purse holders balk at.

In a very short period of time, nearly 10yrs, mtbing in our area has gone from 1 trail to what it is now. The other forest users have not seen much in the way of developments.
to list a few.

The horse brigade
Husky racing
Rallying
Runners
walkers
4X4
bird watchers
photographers
those interested in the flowers etc
Buterflies
Bats
Education use

Sure there are more.

defaultslipper – Member
Trekster, today tomorrow and Saturday if you are about. Alternatively we are running a club ride Sunday evening

Might be out tomorrow sometime with grandkids & wife.
I am working till 6ish Sun, usually not home til after that.
What time is club run?
Get it up on Facebook.
If you can mail me club details I will send it round my mates/addy book.

Alan & I were doing some skills stuff for NHS occ health this afternoon.

I daren't report my experiences of trail building, I'll get lynched 😆

Another 80 tonnes of limestone mysteriously got delivered to my forest last week. Unfortunately the lorry fairies wouldn't back down the damp fireroad so it got dumped in the wrong place. Not to worry though, I'm relaiably informed the tractor and trailer fairies will have moved it by Sunday 8) . We don't want to wear the power barrows out.

Seriously though I don't want to sound too smug but we've been incredilbly lucky with our FE support, couldn't ask for more so it's not all gloom an doom.

Come the revolution you're the first one up against the wall Jon-boy 😉

Trekster – Karl is still IMBA Chairman but due to step down at AGM. You could try him but I would also contact Paddy Harrop (IMBA Treasurer).

You going to go to the AGM in September?

With the advent of CDM regs and how they are interpreted also impacts on "volunteers" and how they are covered by ins.

I really don't want to go off on one here BUT (and a search in my profile will find a few threads where I've been going on about the Regs and their implications) there is no good reason why CDM should present any problems to volunteer trail builders. Anyone that waves them in your face to prevent working is, IMO, using it as a smokescreen, doesn't understand the Regs or hasn't properly considered the appropriate H&S implications in the first place.

IMO there is absolutely no good reason for any form of H&S legislation to significantly impact or preclude volunteer trail building work. That's not to say stuff doesn't apply but it's the application of common sense to avoid people getting hurt, not some deep dark mysterious science 😉

<must resist desire to rant>

😉

Anyone that waves them in your face to prevent working is, IMO, using it as a smokescreen, doesn't understand the Regs or hasn't properly considered the appropriate H&S implications in the first place.

IMO there is absolutely no good reason for any form of H&S legislation to significantly impact or preclude volunteer trail building work. That's not to say stuff doesn't apply but it's the application of common sense to avoid people getting hurt, not some deep dark mysterious science

<must resist desire to rant>

I think it is part of the reason. The local management do not want to be held responsible in the event of anyone being injured. Possibly, guessing here, due to incidents which have occured during the projects infancy. Pure speculation that on my part btw.
The other reason I think is that no FE employee is prepared to do unpaid voluntary work to supervise something they either spend their working week doing or have a passing interest in. Something I fully understand, not having been able to attend any of the dig days myself 😳

Trekster – Karl is still IMBA Chairman but due to step down at AGM. You could try him but I would also contact Paddy Harrop (IMBA Treasurer).

You going to go to the AGM in September?

Have known Karl since he was a mere Ranger at Mabie, then the 1st Stanes project Manager. Attended a trailbuilding course with him in 2001 in Coed, the weekend imba became reality. ?? Blumenthal, Joey Kline and a few others were there.

Sept is just too busy fro me to go anywhere. I work shifts/lots of weekends, works annual shutdown week, son is expecting a new baby and it is grandaughters birthday..phew ❗

Berm Bandit, would that be TIMBER then?

Yep and TROG at Tunstall.

We are just about at the end of the "Red Route" at Thetford armouring and rebuilding pretty much the whole thing. About to start on the "Black", which currently remains a mud/dust/rut motorway through the forest. We have had plenty of ups and downs along the way, we've lost good people, gained others, but currently are on a pretty even keel with the FC and its going well.

Happy to help, offer advice, documents or anything else that we have to hand that might be useful.