thisisnotaspoon – Member

Not the time for speculation but hopefully there’ll be some form of analysis to identify if there’s a requirement for any changes to either trail design or rider behaviour? I’m thinking of something similar to what happens in the climbing world (informally in this country more formally in the US) to work out whether it was a single “unlucky” freak incident or something that we can all learn from.

On the one hand I fundamentally disagree, the trail is what it is, if there was a 3ft drop, you could do yourself some serious harm, but that doesn’t mean all drop off should be at jogging pace and <8″. It’s always rider error, the trail is what it is.[/quote]

I’m not trying to start an argument in any way, this thread certainly isn’t the place for it and it appears from the 2nd (unquoted) part of your post we’re in agreement. I thought a few words to clarify my thoughts may be worthwhile.

If we’re discussing a natural trail or an obvious built feature (such as the drop in your example) then I completely agree – the trail shouldn’t be modified to to be suitable for all; however, if you have a situation where a combination of features or one poorly designed feature, especially on a blue trail ,can cause accidents (perhaps analogous to a badly bolted sport climbing route) by catching inexperienced / unlucky riders out then I’d suggest some form of analysis and perhaps re-design is necessary.

To put it another way, where a trail is purpose built the features should be obvious and probably look harder than they actually are – i.e. it should’t look easy but then have a nasty wheel size hole just around the blind corner or have a landing with a line that ends in a tree etc…

I’m not saying that this is the case at Swinley but that an accident like this should prompt some informed discussion.

Trail centres should be designed so that there’s a challenge, but you aren’t going to die if you roll into it unexpectedly. Or it should be plainly visible what you’re getting yourself into – like the sadly departed planks at Cwmcarn.

Very sad all this… I’ve ridden Swinley for years – and actually quite like it over many of the other places I ride in the UK because I feel a lot safer riding there alone than anywhere else. I guess this sort of thing has the potential to happen anywhere though..

I am at a complete loss to figure out where ‘Red 25’ is though. I can’t imagine I’ve never ridden it, but don’t recognise the you tube videos.

Can anyone give a few pointers as to where this section of trail is?

Red 25 is the second (or third if the birds aren’t ground nesting) piece of singletrack trail you come to after the Labyrinth (although the first is pretty flat and featureless). It has the long climb followed by a fast flowy section with many small whoops/jumps.

It’s one of my favourites there and everything can be rolled, however it can also be hit very fast, I’ve had a couple of dodgy landings and the trees run fairly close in places.

RIP Mark, such a sad thing to happen.

Okay gedit now. There are a lot of very close trees right through there. Hmmmm…

I am at a complete loss to figure out where ‘Red 25’ is though. I can’t imagine I’ve never ridden it, but don’t recognise the you tube videos

It’s now called F1, it’s a switchbacked climb a few sections after the labrynth followed by a fast but very wide decent with a few berms, tabletops and aforementioned rollers.

Trail centres should be designed so that there’s a challenge, but you aren’t going to die if you roll into it unexpectedly. Or it should be plainly visible what you’re getting yourself into

Not sure what Swinley is like but theres a section in Phillips Park nearish me in Manchester- a number of times I’ve said one section is dangerous- start of roller coaster, swoopy trail but after one rise the start of the dip is off camber with trees to your right- very very easy for someone to unexpectedly get that bit wrong- good or new rider (as its open to all 24hours a day).

Still find it hard getting my head around someone dying at Swinley from crashing, but I’ve seen a few offs there and I guess it takes a series of very unlikely factors all combining at once to turn a normal scrape-your-arm crash into something fatal.
Re on the subject of riding alone, would it have saved this poor man if he had been with fellow riders? I can’t imagine it would have been long until another rider came by.

This is the top of the run, just after the climb. Trail is pretty much this surface and width all the way down, should give an idea of the speed you can get.

Also know as Kevlar on Strava.

The but that makes me nervous is the section from the reservoir towards deerstalker. Obviously fine if taken steadily but I am always conscious of not pushing it too hard on that bit and screwing up and hitting a tree. Plus there is one downhill bend in the blue about half way round that flows into a RH berm than has nearly caught me out by going too fast.

I v rarely ride trail centres so the first lap makes me nervous every re traction on the surface. I have yet to feel confident on Swinley and really let go. This makes me even more cautious.

Still find it hard getting my head around someone dying at Swinley

Me too, of all the trail centres Swinley would be at the bottom for danger in my mind

Re on the subject of riding alone, would it have saved this poor man if he had been with fellow riders? I can’t imagine it would have been long until another rider came by.

If he wasn’t breathing, it doesn’t take long 😥

Awful thing to have happened, much praise must go to folk that tried their hardest while waiting on the ambulance to arrive.

Just made it onto the ‘South Today’ BBC local news. Not too sensationalist and did make a point of saying that the trails are not particularly challenging. A nice thank you to the emergency services and the other riders first on the scene.

That section of trail in the photo above looks similar to a lot of the downhills at llandegla. People complain they’re too easy, but the speeds you can reach make the consequences of a crash potentially very serious.

I had a big crash on parallel universe at llandegla , broke a couple of ribs, but its made me slow down a bit now. It could have been a lot worse if I’d hit a tree.

I was there today and spent most of my time thinking “I wonder what he would be have been thinking at this point….”

Red 25 or Kevlar has always scared the hell out of me. You gather speed very fast indeed and if you are not used to air things get out of hand very quickly.

Edlong – you overstate the safety of riding in company unless you actually hold hands on the way round. The reality is unless someone actually sees you crash, by the time they realise you are not coming, shout and get no response and wander back up the trail expecting to see you in a comedy tangle (and probably get their camera out ready!) you may well be too late, even if as you assume the person who arrives first has a clue what to do.

Another thing that strikes me about Swinley – those cobbles are pretty polished, and a lot of the trail has quite a camber so it’s quite easy to wash out. There’s one bit, I forget where, you take off quite quickly and as you go over the whoops you unweight at the exact moment you need to turn in.. sketchy and fast.

Really should lay off the cause and speculation stuff at the moment.

Only thing I’ll say on the confusion over how is to consider how it’s possible for anyone to fatally injury themselves even just tripping up and hitting their head walking. Or even falling out of bed.

Leave it at that for now. Meanwhile…

“Message from The Crown Estate Forest Wardens : Please be aware that the section of R25 will be closed on Tuesday 28th July between 1030 & 1230 to allow family to pay their respects. Thank You for the support and co operation on the trails for a fellow rider!”

There’s also talk of a memorial ride and maybe some kind of tribute with suggestions of a bench at the top of red 25 climb.

Really should lay off the cause and speculation stuff at the moment

I apologise if you though I was speculating.

Wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular. Just seems best to avoid getting into debates about trail design, skills or lack of and helmet wearing. Not right now at least.

This is the top of the run, just after the climb. Trail is pretty much this surface and width all the way down, should give an idea of the speed you can get.

Also know as Kevlar on Strava.

Which makes me say even more – we need to know what/how it happened. I still say mountain biking can be safer than road riding. You can pootle along fine and be more than safe. Its when you/we are pressing on trying to impress other riders or feel like you have to ‘perform’ that it goes wrong.

Just riding along (freak) accidents DO happen but they’d be rare in the total time you are riding. All my riding injuries – you could look at everyone and say ‘yep’ you can see where you were riding why that could happen. On the Swinley one – it needs more info.

edited

Its when you/we are pressing on trying to impress other riders or feel like you have to ‘perform’ that it goes wrong.

What about doing it for the sheer joy? Why do you have to equate speed with vanity? And by implication accusing this poor sod too?

molgrips – Member

Its when you/we are pressing on trying to impress other riders or feel like you have to ‘perform’ that it goes wrong.

What about doing it for the sheer joy? Why do you have to equate speed with vanity? And by implication accusing this poor sod too?

Agreed.

I think if this general debate is going to go further it needs a new thread rather than clog up this one concerning tragic news.

FYI I am sure there will be an investigation taking place as police were on the scene, but right now I think we need to take the debate elsewhere out of respect.

Why are you looking to pick a fight instead of discussion?

Reread:

Its when you/we are pressing on trying to impress other riders or feel like you have to ‘perform’ that it goes wrong.

The person was solo so wasn’t riding to impress. My comment was general at that point.

And yes- when men ride together there is an element of keep-up, dont want to disapear off the back, be seen as too slow, theres a natural bravado, ride together etc in 6inch trail bikes/certain trails no? Or is that comment patently untrue and everyone who starts a descent in a group -everyone just wants to slowly get down? Boys will be boys IMO.

And yes- when people ride together there is an element of keep-up, dont want to disapear off the back, be seen as too slow, theres a natural bravado, ride together etc in 6inch trail bikes/certain trails no?

Speak for yourself. I certainly don’t do that.. well I did once, learned not to again!

Boys will be boys IMO.

Again – speak for yourself! Some of us are grown ups 🙂

Quick update for those not members of the Swinley FB page – looks like there will be a memorial ride on Aug 9th.
I won’t post a link as it’s a closed group – probably worth joining the group if you’re interested in attending, so you’ll see any updates or changes to the plan.

There’s also a book of condolence at the Lookout.

The outpouring of condolence and sympathy on the Swinley FB page has been really touching, many comments from people who never met the guy, but felt his loss as a kindred spirit. I’ve often ridden Swinley solo & stopped to chat to many people, who knows, I may have even spoken to Mark. It makes me realise what a great bunch of people MTBers are (on the whole!).

before Swinley was sanitized I found a biker who had come off whilst riding solo.
He had head injuries and various cuts and bumps. Lost his glasses , and , worst of all, his marbles.
The poor bloke developed a 30 second memory span. This meany having to constantly repeat what had happened, every 35 seconds or so. Plus explaiining my sunnies were mine and not his.

We made him ride back to the lookout with us, which probably wasnt a good idea, then got him ambulanced away . 2 nights in hospital and he was fine

Its easy to get it wrong and smash yourself up , if it wasnt dangerous , and with that exciting ,alot of us wouldnt ride at all.

Not read whole thread as it descended into argument but Daily Mail reporting he was a 50 year old army veteran.

Not sure this has really descended into argument. Hora has made some good points. Sad as it is, this tragedy also brings home the potential dangers of what we all do regularly. Part of that danger for many of us may be increased by the need to push the limits occasionally, whether on our own, or with friends. I can relate to that definitely.

It’s very moving to hear how this tragedy has touched the MTB community and the plans for a memorial ride.

Dreadful news, rest in peace Mark.

I’ve read what’s been posted on the thread. We cannot know what happened exactly and there is no reason to believe that riding alone was a major factor – if you do hit a tree hard enough having someone with you to call 999 quite possibly won’t make a difference to the outcome.

RIP Mark

The outpouring of condolence and sympathy on the Swinley FB page has been really touching, many comments from people who never met the guy, but felt his loss as a kindred spirit. I’ve often ridden Swinley solo & stopped to chat to many people, who knows, I may have even spoken to Mark. It makes me realise what a great bunch of people MTBers are (on the whole!).

Totally agree with this sentiment. I’ve ridden on and off at Swinley for over 20 years, it’s such a friendly community, nearly 400 posts on the FB site. Sadly I can’t make the ride as away.

RIP Mark

Everyone, I feel it is time to end some speculation. I have been (or was – I still can’t quite believe he’s gone) Mark’s regular riding cohort for a few years now, but I wasn’t with him on that day because I was on holiday.

Firstly I want to express my heartfelt thanks to the riders and ranger that helped Mark in his time of need. I am regularly trained in Basic Life Support (BLS) as part of my job, but had I been there, I am pretty sure I couldn’t have done any better than those guys (and it is quite likely I might have been less use due to emotional attachment). They are heroes in my eyes, regardless of the outcome and I sincerely hope that the events on that day have not affected their love for this pastime – Mark would not have wanted that. If any of them are at the memorial ride on Sun, I hope I get the chance to thank them in person.

So…. Yes, Mark was wearing a helmet, which was recently bought, as his old one was getting tatty. Yes, we both knew the Swinley trails well (both the original natural ones and the new ones), we had ridden them pretty much weekly for 6 months since Mark came back from working abroad and we often sessioned red 25 multiple times in succession as it was one of our favourite bits. Yes Mark had ridden it solo quite a few times before without incident. Yes, riders got to him almost immediately after it happened as the guys waiting for their turn on the trail heard him crash and went straight to his aid (it happened quite near to the top of the trail). They called 999 and the ranger (all riders should have the Swinley ranger’s number on them to be able to get paramedics to the right place as quickly as possible) then immediately started CPR, which they did until the paramedics arrived ~20mins later. Sadly however, despite everyone’s best efforts, Mark succumbed to his injuries a while later as the medical team prepared him for airlift to hospital.

So even though Mark went out solo, in effect he was not really alone at all. Had I been there, the only difference would have been that we would have known exactly what happened because I would have seen the whole thing (although with hindsight it is probably a good thing that I didn’t). As it is, after visiting the site, I am just as in the dark as everyone else on here, because it happened on the most benign part of that run – some of the later sections are much faster and far more sketchy than the top bit. So I still can’t imagine what could have happened on that part of the trail that should end so sadly.

To the best of my knowledge the bike was undamaged so it was unlikely to have been a mechanical issue (other than possibly running out of grip or something like that).

That is all I have.

(One last thing…. I hope that the guy that somewhat sanctimoniously told us “that’s not a safe place to be” as he rode past us whilst we were paying our respects reads this and feels suitably apologetic).

RIP good mate. You went on ahead, but you’ve always waited for me; so we will meet again at the trail’s end.

🙁

Amazing words there dude.

So sorry for your loss, RIP Mark.

Sorry to hear you lost your friend.

Fine words from a no doubt fine friend.

I’m sorry for his families and your loss. I hope you all find peace

Thank you for coming on to share.

Sorry for your loss.

🙁

As above, sorry for your loss but appreciate your comments.

Very sad story. Take care on the trails, but don’t stop riding