I’m looking for a bit of guidance from more experienced trad climbers.

I’ve been getting into trad more over the year… still barely getting out but thats due to other sports (biking) and work getting in the way. I’ve probably been outdoors leading trad about 15-20x lets say in the last year.

I’ve done years of sport climbing (Living in France) on and off (had a big shoulder injury to recover from) but I’m generally comfortable on a rock face.

I guess the reason for the post is I feel like I’m probably “too” comfortable and I feel like I’ve got into a few climbs this weekend that I’m questioning the sanity of.

I’m leading at MVS and so are my mates so we are all a similar level but the exposure of some of the climbs I feel is maybe just a bit too much to risk..

I broke up with my misses a year ago and I feel a bit “numb” to risk since then.. I’m not sure if I can fully contribute it to that but it feels like its the main reason. Being aware of that is helpful and I can use it to my advantage at times (no Elvis leg in tricky situations and no panic where it wont help fumbling for some much needed gear is going to save me).

I guess what I’m asking is, am I risking too much too soon? Is it normal / safe to feel numb in the face of danger? Do I need to find more protected routes to build my trad experience rather than just climbing any MVS I find?

Picture below from the weekend.. the first bit of gear was just under my feet and was not good due to the rock having nothing deep to get a grip of – I managed to get some good gear where I was stood in the picture so the top felt less exposed but it still wouldn’t have ended well for my legs / head if I had slipped at that point.

That was a small climb but later that day I did a harder MVS which meant I had only 1 foot on a small placement and a really crap open handed under cling whilst fumbling for gear about 10 meters up with nasty rocks below… luckily the gear was bomber but it’s still a long placement for a low grade and maybe a bit much? Shame though as the climb was really nice.

Just climb lots of different routes on as many crags/ different places as possible. Build up a decent chunk of experience before pushing grades, and remember how hard a grade can feel can vary massively across the country and dependant on your experience/ technique to date.

Feeling numb to danger? You need to focus on the climb, but that’s different. Some routes are run-out, but that’s part of it. I wouldn’t recommend just turning your mind off from the danger if that’s what ‘numb’ means. I would recommend studying the route, assessing the risk, consider the run-out etc and then if ok, then climb it. Different things.

The grade doesn’t matter so much as the prang factor which when I was last climbing in the UK was given in the Yorkshire guide as a “P” number. If you’re well within your grade don’t worry too much as even if the gear isn’t great you’re unlikely to fall off.

Just look at the climb and judge for yourself.

Some climbers want to tick high grades and go for routes with poor protection to score their first E-whatever. I tended to do the opposite and go for high technical grades with a low E-number as they were generally safer.

Some examples from Stanage of similar difficulty but increasingly dangerous hence the higher grade.

Suzanne – HVS 6a but you can jump off the crux without hurting yourself (Might be E1 now).

Flying buttress Direct HVS/E1. Great gear but not many people get up it first time without falling until they realise where to rock over.

Chameleon E3 5C. One of the frighteners I’ve done. All the gear fell out when going through the crux with no chance of down climbing and nasty rocks to fall on. I stupidly did it on sight and later found the first ascentionist had topped roped it about 20 times first. I got to the top sat down and started shaking.

I’d treat being numb to danger as a red flag. Pick some well protected routes and get the mileage in and try not to get miles above gear. Focus less on grades for a while. Sounds like you’ve been unlucky in recent routes, there’s plenty of safer options out there and you can usually get a feel for the gear from the ground or the guide.

Looks like a nice spot – where was it op.

As Edukator says it’s not the grade itself that’s the main problem what you need to look for are climbs that can be well protected. If you’ve also only really climbed sports climbs then you also need to gain trust in the gear that you place yourself (never understood why people trust bolts placed by strangers but not gear they place themselves but hey ho)

Counter-intuitively steeper climbs are often safer as falls tend to be into thin air.

To gain trust in just how good gear can be you need to test placements in a safe environment. The easiest way to do this is to find a quarry or other steep rock face and put in gear at about shoulder height, clip a sling into it then step in the sling. If the gear pulls then you are going to drop all of a foot or so back to the ground. It won’t take long before you realise just how good self-placed gear can be.

P.S. MVS is a very Lakes centric grade which got me trying to identify the climb you are on. Hoad Slabs just outside Ulverston?

ukclimbing.com forums would be the place to ask, not that I’m entirely sure what the question is. You wonder if you might be being overconfident? Unlikely if you’re worrying with gear at your feet. [edited as missed last bit of the original post]

mvs is a not very often used grade in the areas I know (yorks – btw the new guide’s abandoned P grades, though you can work out risk by comparing adjectival and technical grades, or alternatively by looking at the climb). Why not get on a few more strenuous but better protected vs climbs and see how it goes?

Thanks for the advice guys – exactly the advice I needed to hear.

Numb is maybe slightly the wrong word I guess I am focused on the climb, being considered with moves but I feel for example like there were no run out options of either of the climbs I did – once I was in there it was committed and I didn’t read the route well enough from the bottom to see that the gear placement was marginal until I was in that position each time.

I normally think I’m quite good in reading where I’m going and where looks good for gear but up close it was a different story.

I guess my logical brain is just surprised that I’m comfortable(ish) with being in those positions after being so reliant on sport bolts every couple of meters before hand.

I climb 6a/+ inside normally but can stretch to 6b/+ depending on the style of route – does that sound like a MVS is a comfortable trad grade for me with this amount of inexperience?

I’d forget about your sport/indoor grades for now and just climb as many trad routes as you can, working up from a low grade on every new rock/crag so you gain as much experience as possible.

look at the technical grade the climb gets as well as the overall grade. Without wanting to sound condescending it may be that you’re missing potential gear placements.
For example a VS with tech grade of 4c is pretty average, nothing too difficult technically and good gear not too spaced out. If a VS has a tech grade of 4b or 4a it’s usually a good indication that the climbing is technically easier but the gear may be sparse and the risk in falling is higher. While a VS with 5a tech grade would suggest harder move/s but with great gear or hard move close to ground.
Sometimes you have to be inventive or really look around for gear (even looking off route). Also, small gear in small cracks aren’t necessarily poor placements, asking as they seat well.

Nipper99 – that’s Ulverston – Hoad Slabs.. however on UKC (didn’t look before) it doesn’t show it as a MVS.. it’s a HVS maybe that was my bad climbing off the route.. I thought I was doing a VS into a MVS (the crux near the top you could go around it or do it).

Looks like it could have been “Hoad Road”

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=1460#maps

To be fair we only went there as it’s on the doorstep and there are a couple of routes up it worth doing whilst we were waiting on a friend finishing work before going to Newby Bridge

[editing because slow. What others have said about grades] I do think that particularly at these low (okay let’s call ’em mid) grades where I operate, outdoor climbs can bear little relation to what you’ll find in a climbing wall. Watch out for words like “traditional”.

Sport 6a/6a+ is roughly equivalent to E1 but that assumes you are confident climbing in both styles. Until you trust your own gear any sort of comparison is pointless.

Just get out and do lots of easy climbs, pick routes that are noted in the guidebooks as being well protected (or at least not picked out as being poorly protected) until you feel comfortable.

Even after 30 years of climbing I find I need to climb 3 or 4 times a week to become fluid in how I move on rock otherwise I look like I’m auditioning for a role in Thunderbirds 😆

If you are in Ulverston then nip down to Birkrigg Quarry and practice putting gear in on the low level traverse there – even better training if you put the gear in *while* doing the traverse!

if you are happy climbing 6a/6b UK rock grade indoors it would make MVS feel easy. However, with 6a/6b French/Spanish (sport) grade ability you might find some trad VS routes hard work and worrying. Don’t forget that 6b UK rock is roughly the same as French 7b. It’s only bouldering grades that are similar in the UK and France.

Sometimes the gear isn’t there, and if it is sometimes rhythm and focus and going a bit further than you should before you get something in can be better than stressing about finding that placement earlier.

MVS sounds like a strange grade to me! I always like a good HS. They’re often well protected, they’re easy but still feel like proper climbing. I’ve been on plenty of S climbs that have felt harder/scarier! If climbing VS, pay attention to the English technical grade. The higher the better, as it means it should be well protected.

Also, make sure you have a big rack. An easy S/HS will obviously feel much harder if you don’t have the right gear! Lots of nuts and a full set of cams.

Are you still climbing with a single sport rope? Consider buying some half ropes and learn how to use them. They make meandering/long climbs much easier to protect for you and your second.

Reading the comments above ^ that were posted in my time of replying are also greatly received.

I do think I need to work on reading the grades better as to be honest I’ve delegated that a bit to friends.

I wouldn’t be worried about placing small gear it was more how shallow some of the gear was and it’s not really cracks there as the rock is quite a solid piece and polished so nuts I was testing were pulling out (actually gave myself a knock on the nose testing a bit of gear!) oops.

After going on UKC I think thats also part of my issue – not reading what other climbers have said about a route… reading it now it gives a much better indication to what the conditions are like than the guide book we were using.

So I think my take aways so far are:

1, test falling onto gear as whitestone said
2, get a better understanding on trad grades so I can find better protected climbs to build up hours
3, read ukc for insights into what the climb may entail rather than just the guide book
4, I think I’ll get an instructor to take me out for a day and see if they spot anything noticeable about my style / gear placing that is lacking

@Edukator Sometimes it works the other way round as well. In the mid 1980s a mate and I were doing one of the (then) new rock climbs in the Mt Blanc range. A couple of pitches up and we noticed a French team speeding up towards us. The next pitch was given French 6b. By the time I was ready to start the French lads had caught us. The crack was a perfect hand jamming crack and would have been Severe or VS at most on a gritstone edge. We had done the next three pitches and were abseiling down by the time the French leader had got to the top of the crack pitch!

Pretty well every crack we did was way over-graded for someone who could jam, the slabs on the other hand were desperate.

@mwleeds – MVS is probably only used in the Lakes

Edit: it’s not so much testing falling onto gear as understanding the placing of it, hence the hint about low level testing.

get a better understanding on trad grades so I can find better protected climbs to build up hours

There is a hidden language in the guide books you have to learn, any words like ‘bold’ mean ‘no gear at all’, regardless of the grade.

So a description like VS 4c “A bold introduction to VS at Stanage”, means ‘one slip and you’re in intensive care’. I recall scaring myself shitless on just one such VS at Stannage years ago, not a single piece of gear and a good selection of spiky boulders to ensure any fall would be fatal (if lucky), wheel chair (if not). After that I figured out how to read the guides better….

My indoor grade was going off what Kendal set on their walls – I’m assuming it’s French grade as thats the same as what I was climbing in France… I wouldn’t be on 7b in France. So lets just say I’m a solid 6 French grade climber.. Obviously from climbing it I can say it feels easy but I don’t think I’d want to go harder if it wasn’t protected every couple of meters.

Whitestone – that’s a good idea indeed – something to do of the evening too!

I think you’re also right about the amount of time climbing, I’m about to build a home bouldering wall in the garage and maybe up the stairs as I can’t really justify going to kendal that much to climb over winter so hoping some drills indoors will aid the lead climbing on the wall once a week. (between the cycling).

We normally climb on 2 ropes if the route is more varied but because of the direct nature of that slab I thought it was safer on a single rope as I assume there is less stretch / slack in a single rope system?

I don’t actually have a trad rack – my friends do so I borrow theirs… maybe it’s time I start buying some gear

Thanks footflaps thats a good insight too! One of my favourite quotes is “You only learn from mistakes, but they don’t have to be your mistakes” 🙂

So why does MVS exist? I just assumed it was a normal grade but I did query my mate why it wasn’t on the “Trad grade tables” when I saw it at the climbing wall?

Sounds like you’ll make a good winter climber if you don’t mind climbing thru gear that you know, deep down, is neither use nor ornament.

So why does MVS exist?

In the olden days (pre Extreme grades) there were loads of British Grades. MVS has pretty much been dropped now and it just goes S, HS, VS, HVS, E1. Standards are so much higher now that having 10s grades between Easy and HVS doesn’t really make much sense.

The British ability to jam cracks and off-widths eh, Whitestone. I had a go at a Whillans off-width in the Peak. I slithered and struggled but couldn’t make head nor tail of it – I wouldn’t have wanted to get much higher anyhow, it was wider than my biggest camming thing. Cycling home I suddenly twigged – chockstones! They used to jam stones in cracks for both protection and to make holds, with no stones it was several grades harder and dangerous.

Not many MVS around these days, and I wouldn’t use it as a benchmark grade as it can either mean an easy well protected VS or a poorly protected severe. And it’s not always easy to tell the difference from the ground or the guidebook.

My advice would be to look for stuff that is obviously (or described as) well protected at 4b – usually Hard Severes, get good at climbing those sorts of moves and placing copious gear when you’re knackered, then move up to VS 4c, which tends to be a bit steadier, and generally well-protected.

They used to jam stones in cracks for both protection and to make holds, with no stones it was several grades harder and dangerous

Nah. Brown and Whillans were just bloody good at jamming! Normally while nonchalantly smoking a fag. 🙂

Re: MVS. Originally in the UK rock climbing scheme there were the following grades: Easy, Moderate, Difficult, Very Difficult, Severe. They then added “mild” or “hard” to indicate whether a route was easy or hard for the main grade, a sort of sub-division if you will. This meant you could get Mild Very Difficult! Some of these sub-divisions stuck, others didn’t so you get Hard Difficult and Hard Very Difficult but not the mild versions.

As routes got harder then Very Severe was introduced and again mild and hard modifiers were applied. Over time Hard Very Severe became a complete grade in its own right. Mild Very Severe however had a fight on its hands: in a lot of areas grades went – Severe, Hard Severe(HS), Very Severe(VS) but in the Lakes the grades went – Severe, HS, MVS, VS.

What it tends to represent in current Lakes guidebooks is a poorly protected HS though there are exceptions. Back when the grades were introduced all routes were unprotected as the gear just wasn’t up to handling the forces generated in a fall, hence “The leader must not fall”.

Edit: found it! Here’s an article that explains all the above (and more) http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/article.php?p=uk-grades – it was the standard UKC link about the UK grading system

They used to jam stones in cracks for both protection and to make holds, with no stones it was several grades harder and dangerous.

Wooden blocks for protection. There are still some in various cracks at Milverstone Edge, you can just loop a sling round them.

Thanks for the explanation guys all very helpful indeed, I’m going to link my climbing buddies to this post!

Just what I needed!

In addition to what footflaps says, they also didn’t used to have adjective and technical grade.

I spent most of one Winter climbing in the Peak in the 80s and heard a lot of folklore from the locals. Apparently purists had removed some of the natural chockstones that had been in cracks in the 50s as well as the ones added by climbers.

Brown was famous for his chockstone use in artificial climbing:

Unfortunately for René, who thought that the British would let them go ahead, now was the time for Chris to perform his best ever lead on rock. He decided to show the ‘Frogs’ a trick used by ‘The Master’, Joe Brown: taking some pebbles, he jammed two in the crack and with a sling around them trod delicately in the etriers.

Yep, but he normally went back and freed the routes later. I’m afraid you have no excuse. (Apart from the fact it’s a horrible offwidth and you don’t want to do it…) 😀

🙁

Some lakeland crags can be frustratingly compact with holds but little gear – sounds like you might have been on one of them! Don’t over-analyse ukc comments – it can put you right off reading about other people’s epics. You might also want to apply your ‘trip advisor’ filter to discard the nutter reviews 🙂

You should be able to navigate a crag from the guide really and like your English teacher always said, ‘read the question’ – get used to the secret language that can reveal the route character.

At French 6a/6b indoors you shouldn’t find anything technical enough to stop you on a VS. Getting up them is another set of skills mind. I’ve seen indoor 7a climbers fall apart on VS/HVS. Ask away though, we talk a good climb on here 😉

…and there’s been just a little discussion of chockstones on UKC, the following sequence of threads on one climb giving a little of the flavour:

“Removing the chockstone from Right Eliminate”
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=98319

“Off To Remove The chockstone From Right Eliminate” http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=567510

“Physics puzzle – right eliminate chockstone disposal”
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=106117

“Trial seperation”
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=98690

“Right Eliminate – VOTE : Replace Chockstone”
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=99149

“Right Eliminate” [putting it back again]
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=98925

can’t offer any advice on grading as I have very little experience on climbing in the uk.

the numbness thing i can totally relate to. Did some silly solo climbs (alpine)after losing a close friend and girlfriend in an avalanche.
the recklesness wore off after a while though (and has been replaced by being a bit of a wuss since becoming a dad)

what i would notice as a sportclimber going to an alpine (trad) environment is that i would get so focused on the climb that i would forget about placing gear.
i needed to learn to look constantly for placements and not climb a bit and say. mmmm about time i put something in and only then start looking for a placement

MVS is an interesting grade… not quite as interesting as the HXS that I used to encounter on the questionable coastal crags I used to frequent 15 years ago.

VS is a reasonable grade to consolidate at, once you have a selection of them under your belt it can be better to hit E1 rather than HVS as you usually know what to expect with E1. I had a load more E1s done than HVS before I laid off the climbing.

Lakes crags are quite interesting in themselves. Quite often the polish makes them seem more difficult.

Lakes crags are quite interesting in themselves. Quite often the polish makes them seem more difficult.

I found them harder than the equivalent Peak district grade.

Although in some cases finding the route was the hardest part…..

As others have said there is a bit of a knack to reading guide books expecially when combined with English understatement and dry wit. In general as well slabs are going to be more run out than cracks etc due to geology.

Thanks for relating Spot – really sorry to hear about the tragic news, it certainly puts things into perspective. I also think you’re very right about climbing then looking for gear placements. It’s a bit like biking maybe where most people want to brake on the hard stuff but it’s too late and they should have lost their speed on the easier bits and read the track ahead better.

Interesting what you say about E1’s Electric.. I don’t suppose anyone has any suggestions on what to climb around the South Lakes or within a 2/3 hours drive knowing what’s been said?

Thanks
Alex