This has been going on for months, I've been waiting for the panic over here.
Toyota appear to be coming out of this extremely badly, in the US their sales have fallen compared to Fomoco and Goverment Motors.
The previous fix for this problem was a recall to fit "new floor mats". Toyota is so going to get sued.
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Toyota/Lexus deaths - Dial 911 or switch of ignition?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car's keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine while the car is moving, were "not indicated on the dashboard."
Interesting.. my car is probly the same, but I didn't know about that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm damned bloody sure I could stop a car with a stuck accelerator quicker than I could dial 999.
Throttle cable snapped on my 106 that I had when I was 17, leaving the throttle wide open and lunging for the rev limiter.
So I knocked it out of gear, coasted onto the side of the road and switched the ignition off. Then called someone with a trailer to come and pick me up...
Did I die? No... Did I have time to call 999? No... Pretty immediate reaction once I felt the throttle jammed open was to knock it out of gear (which you can of course still do in an auto FFS!), which I did withing perhaps a second or 2 of realising the throttle was wide open. Even with 999 on speed dial and my mobile in my hand already, would've taken 10 to 15 seconds to make the call...
Sorry, not much sympathy I'm afraid...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Mavboy - the theory is that when an auto is under full load it would be too hard to knock into N, and that they had an electronic ignition that you can't turn off.
Anyway - panicing and not thinking of what to do should not be punishable by death you cretin.
Posted 2 years ago # -
maverick=cock
Posted 2 years ago # -
Anyway - panicing and not thinking of what to do should not be punishable by death you cretin.
Did I say it was?
I just think that there are many more ways of avoiding said accident than were tried. What was ringing 911 going to achieve?
maverick=cock
Ah, you've met me then!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Besides, perhaps some emergency scenraio training should be implemented into driving tests worldwide as they do in Finland? People are taught to control skids, and all sorts of other potentially avoidable scenarios, before they can take their test...
Just a thought anyway.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think I would've put the car into a spin/roll situation, before I thought to dial 911...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Actually, will rephrase what I said...
Lots of sympathy for the guys family, they were innocent casualties. The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him. Fact his family died because of this is of course tragic.
Were Toyota at fault? For the throttle sticking open on the car almost certainly, but for the outcome of the accident? I'm sorry, but I still don't buy a lot of liability laws... Common sense and good practice should always prevail no matter what, this being able to sue people because of your own stupidity/lack of talent really gets me!
Posted 2 years ago # -
From the linked report the only way the driver could have avoided a controlled or uncontrolled carsh would have been to hold the start button down for more than three seconds. I didn't know you could stop a car with card/button ignition by holding the button down for three seconds before reading the report - how many of you did?
Posted 2 years ago # -
maverickboy - please, just stop.
I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of us would have panicked like f*ck, and probably died too. It's easy to say what you would have done from behind a keyboard, but in an unfamiliar car full of screaming people, at speed, heading for an accident - we'd (almost) all sh*t it. FACT
Posted 2 years ago # -
So I knocked it out of gear, coasted onto the side of the road and switched the ignition off. Then called someone with a trailer to come and pick me up...
So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?
Posted 2 years ago # -
It took me over a year to work out I could turn my bugging PC off by holding the button down for 5s rather than switching it off at the mains.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Are you into eugenics? Those who have less than stellar intelligence should die? Just thought I'd ask.
Anyone can make a mistake. There are lots of ways people could have avoided the accidents they end up having, even when the situation they found themselves in wasn't their fault.
Just because the driver didn't think of the thing that may have saved his family, does not mean that it's OKAY that he died. Lack of perfection should not mean death is deserving... hence the comment about eugenics.
Posted 2 years ago # -
There has been a shed load written about this look at the LA Times auto pages. Lots of modern powerful cars won't stop a full throttle engine on the brakes - and in a heavily trafficed urban environment I'd suggest some you should come and try controlling such a car up, say the London end of the M3 I'd bet none of you would get past the first roundabout.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Don't forget there were three adults in the car and I don't think that the other two would have been keeping their suggestions to themselves. I still think they'd tried pretty much everything - other than the 'secret turning engine off while moving technique'.
My father in law has a lexus with push button ignition - I very much doubt he would know how to stop the engine when moving.
Maybe it could also be argued that the garage that lent him the car 'may' also be to blame for not going through this 'safety' feature before he took the car?Posted 2 years ago # -
MaverickBoy - Member
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for himHave you been reading this thread?
Posted 2 years ago # -
There seems to be a lot of unfair blame for the driver. This was a car that was unfamiliar to him. I suspect he was a more skilled driver than assumed.
The real point is that the car had a fault that killed a whole family.
It could happen to any one of us (except the driving gods who have the benefit of hindsight).
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Been in the motor trade for years and sold numerous automatic vans. I wouldnt know how to stop the car in that situation either.
I only hope that in that kind of situtation i have the presence of mind to plant it into whatever immovable object i could find before it got to such a velocity that i wouldnt survive (Ie crash it). I would also be looking for some dievine intervention and a new set of underpants.
I honestly havent a clue if a automatic can be shunted from drive to neutral whilst under load, i dont think they can but i will be testing it on the next one i get in.
Considering the guy was a traffic cop i recon its safe to asume he had a level of common sense and that if he thought it would work he would have tried it. Tragic accident involving a family so doesnt deserve flippant comments
Posted 2 years ago # -
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Not with ABS
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why would abs make a difference?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Because it won't let you lock the wheels which you'd have to do to stall the engine. If you try to decelerate faster than the sytem is programmed to accept it kicks in and modulates the Brakes. Old autos could be shifted to neutral but now they have fuel-saving lockouts I very much doubt you can at speed.
I was surprised that someone said that is you brake in a Passat it automatically cuts throttle. I've been able to left-foot brake in every FWD car I've ever driven with no effect on power.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why would abs make a difference?
I think maybe if you could get the brakes to lock you might be able to stall the car - but ABS won't let you do this. I presume he'd tried chucking it into neutral - faced with a massive accident you'd try everything you could think of.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I believe he was driving a loaner car, so I would assume he was unfamiliar with it's controls.
And pardon my ignorance but how do you stop one of these under normal circumstances?Posted 2 years ago # -
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Lots of comments on the BBC story about people having accelerator pedals jam - lots of them not Toyotas. It's not like they all do it. I'll still be driving mine. Admittedly it's not an affected model!
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Do you really think that he was just gently tickling the pedal whilst he sped towards certain death for him and his family?
Posted 2 years ago # -
My sympathies to the family - in fairness the automatic should and could go into neutral but he probably didn't think about it and panicked. Brakes wouldn't hold the whole engine's power either - just awful for them all. A family died nastily here - sympathy is a good thing right now.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Seems odd about the brakes not being able to dissipate the car. I mean they can slow it from 70mph faster than you can accelerate to that speed.. so surely they should be more than a match?
Confused.
Posted 2 years ago # -
molgrips - the brakes would have boiled. Bear in mind the brakes were trying to stop a 272bhp car weighing a couple of tons that was on full throttle. No contest sadly
Posted 2 years ago # -
The cock-sure self-righteousness of the hindsight jockeys in this thread is truly astounding.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yes 272bhp is a lot but thing about it - you can stop from 60 quicker than you can accelerate to 60 - so the brakes must be able to exert more torque than the engine.. My guess is you'd have slowed a fair bit before brake fade caused them to loose effectiveness.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
i havent read the report but maybe he called the police to clear the road ahead so he didnt cause a accident like he might of by just spinning the car out.
Also hard to just pull handbrake on as it will rip the shoes off or just wear down the pad material like the fronts or snap cables but mostly it may have the park function on the colum shift again.
Autos will never go into park whilst moving, none that i have seen anyhow..
Posted 2 years ago # -
IIRC he couldn't shut off the engine because he had to hold the start button for three seconds - not something that is easy to do when your car is out of control at full speed.
As for the braking I also seem to remember that there was a problem with the vacuum assist not having as much power when the throttle was fully open. What I don't understand in something as electronic as these cars how someone hadn't spotted the failure mode of a stuck accelerator (for whatever reason) and someone pressing on the brakes at the same time and then letting the brakes override. Hindsight is great of course but it does seem like the sort of possibility that might get picked up in fault analysis
Posted 2 years ago # -
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
Some cars do. Not this one though, it being a Japanese car and all.
You can't put it into park, that would destroy the tranny for sure. We are talking about putting it into neutral which you can normally do. Are you even reading the thread?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Brakes will cook very quickly when working against full engine power. The best thing you can do in the situation (assuming you can't get it in neutral) is to slam the brakes on as hard as possible as soon as possible. Gradual braking is absolutely sure to cook the brakes - the fluid won't normally boil, even under very hard use, but the pads burn up and the escaping gases force them away from the surface of the disc, massively reducing their effectiveness.
There are a fair few cars that won't let you accelerate against the brakes - my old 406 HDI would allow you to left foot brake for about half a second, and then it would completely cut all power. Seems like a fairly basic safety interlock if you're going to have a fly by wire throttle (you could quite easily cut the injector cycle / spark rather than throttle angle for the event of stepper motor failure).
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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