JY Iraq itself has been relatively quiet since our departure,

if it weren’t so sad, what you’ve said would be funny.

If we can invade a country off the back of fake WMDs, then we can go to the rescue of a country when they’re suffering genocide.

Wooooah there!! Genocide? Thats the first I’ve heard about genocide. Do we have any evidence whatsoever that that’s what’s going on? I’ve been watching this and I’ve seen no evidence presented at all about anything amounting to genocide. There are rumours. But thats all they are. All very convenient. I think after the whole dodgy dossier business we need to be very sceptical about what we’re being told is going on. And we need to be coldly asking for hard evidence. And presently I’ve seen none thats what happening is genocide. Have I missed something?

And are you suggesting that the dodgy dossier is now the benchmark for evidence required to go to war? I’d say that what that tells us is the folly of unquestioningly accepting what we’re being told. We need our glorious leaders to answer the questions I listed earlier

1. what threat do they pose to us (none that I can see)
2. what would our involvement set out to achieve (erm…..?)
3. How would our involvement achieve these clearly stated aims (errrrrrrrm……..?)

I’ve no doubt that its a pretty abhorrent regime. But the world’s full of those. Ironically Tony himself works for one, doing their PR, as an apologist for their human rights abuses.

Oh the….

Perhaps ISIS needs to get Tony on board? Maybe this whole thing is a sales pitch?

Wooooah there!! Genocide? Thats the first I’ve heard about genocide. Do we have any evidence whatsoever that that’s what’s going on?

Personal evidence, no, but I can only go by what I read

http://www.rttnews.com/2340932/isil-militants-killed-more-than-1000-civilians-in-recent-onslaught-in-iraq-un.aspx

ISIL have broadcast dozens of videos showing cruel treatment and beheadings and shootings of Iraqi soldiers, police officers, as well as people apparently targeted because of their religion or ethnicity, including Shia and minority groups such as Turcomans, Shabak, Christians, and Yezidis.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/gruesome-evidence-ethnic-cleansing-northern-iraq-islamic-state-moves-wipe-out-minorities-2014-0

Fresh evidence uncovered by Amnesty International indicates that members of the armed group calling itself the Islamic State (IS) have launched a systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing in northern Iraq, carrying out war crimes, including mass summary killings and abductions, against ethnic and religious minorities

ISIL Militants Killed More Than 1000 Civilians In Recent Onslaught In Iraq: UN

So…. two thirds of the civilians that the Israeli’s recently killed indiscriminately in Gaza, while we parroted the mantra of ‘Israels right to defend itself’? And a minuscule amount when compared to the blood that Tony has on his hands?

I’m not disputing that theres all manner of nasty stuff going on. What I’m saying is that the narrative that we’re being sold is preposterous. We’re expected to believe that ISIS is ‘the enemy’. A unified group of ‘baddies’ that we can target. Whats going on is an amalgamation of all manner of conflicts. Sectarian. Tribal. Islamist. An actual civil war in Syria against Assad. Across borders. All backed and armed by all manner of regimes in the area, fighting proxy wars. Its a mess! And if we’re looking for a simple good guys/bad guys narrative then we’re on a hiding to nothing right from the off! Remember… 12 months ago the guys who are now the baddies were courageous freedom fighters who we should be helping. Seems to me we haven’t got a clue whats actually taking place on the ground. And does it sound to anyone that thats a good premise on which to be wading in, all guns blazing?

JY I said “relatively”, relative to the prior 10 years.

You said since our departure and the point is no one could credibly call the cited history as “relatively” quiet. Furthermore your argument was about how our ground forces could “neutralise” ISIS. Iraq shows we failed in this regard. civil war and your country partitioned by force = “relatively quiet” what would have been relatively bad and very bad and terrible then?

ISIS was able to expand dramatically into Iraq

Do you read posts ISIS is from IRAQ
Why do you repeat things that are not true?
What are we debating for when you ignore actual facts?

So…. two thirds of the civilians that the Israeli’s recently killed indiscriminately in Gaza, while we parroted the mantra of ‘Israels right to defend itself’? And a minuscule amount when compared to the blood that Tony has on his hands?

@binners ISIL killed 1000 civilians in that area, the overall total in Iraq and Syria is much much higher and would by now have reached huge numbers IMO (100,000?) if they had not been driven back by air strikes. Does Tony Blair have the 100,000+ of deaths from sectarian violence in Iraq on his hands or should the protagonists take the blame ?

Total casualties in Gaza are approx 50% civilian (1100) vs 50% Hamas terrorists/operatives, it will be shown in time that the many male casualties Hamas recorded as civilians where involved in the fighting (60% of casualties where adult males). This has been the pattern of prior conflicts, the casualty statistics are given by the UN in Gaza which is comprised 99.6% Palestinians (29,400 out of 30,000 UN employees). Most of those killed where killed after Israel accepted a cease fire which Hamas rejected only to agree a ceasefire much later after many more deaths on the same terms. No Gazan’s wold have been killed had Hamas not spent the first 6 months of 2014 firing 100’s of rockets at Israeli towns and cities.

Military spending. We can agree to differ. We should be spending more. Military spending is also positive for the economy as its provides high tech jobs and research and development which is used elsewhere in other civilian projects.

JY ISIS built its strength and capabilities in Syria and recruited the Westerners into Syria before expanding dramatically into Iraq. As I said if the Iraqi military had stood firm they could and should have dealt with the insurgence and kept it within Syria. Whether you believe the group originated in Iraq or Syria isn’t relevant it established itself in its current large well funded form in Syria as part of that civil war.

This is not an escalation
This is just a surge toward victory

😆

You can have a defense force and still maintain QRF and our obligation for peacekeeping.

I disagree. A defence force is defensive. It’s training, capabilities and equipment (and costs) are very different to that of a force with a QRF/exped capability. Defence forces are completely useless to organisations like the UN and NATO.

Yeah but what I’m saying is that the skills and training don’t just *puff* in a cloud of smoke, and you can maintain these skills and the forces trained with these skills (albeit a lot smaller) but not use them in the interventionist way that they are now.

@binners ISIL killed 1000 civilians in that area, the overall total in Iraq and Syria is much much higher and would by now have reached huge numbers IMO (100,000?)

And where on earth has that figure come from? Let me guess? Plucked out of the air, by any chance? And are you suggesting that the deaths in Syria are all down to ISIS? Theres a civil war thats been raging for years, that they are only one element of. Thats the thing with wars. People have a tendency to get killed in large numbers.

Have you thought about a future in preparing dossiers? You’d come in handy at the moment. Looks like they’re going to need some totally spurious guesswork, and cloud-cuckoo-land notions of perceived threats to justify doing what they’ve no doubt already committed us to doing.

ISIS built its strength and capabilities in Syria and recruited the Westerners into Syria before expanding dramatically into Iraq. As I said if the Iraqi military had stood firm they could and should have dealt with the insurgence and kept it within Syria. Whether you believe the group originated in Iraq or Syria isn’t relevant

See that bit where i quoted the history to you – those are not my words 🙄

It is what happened it is not what I think it is what happened
You are the only person on the planet who thinks ISIS – Islamic State in Iraq started not in Iraq – I really will never ever speak to you again about anything as facts and you are not even remotely acquainted.

Repeating your lie and failure to accept reality will not a truth make they just make you look detached from reality – in your case it should be even more detached.

The Islamic State (IS; Arabic: ?????? ?????????? ad-Dawlah l-?Isl?miyyah), previously calling itself the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL /?a?s?l/) or the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS

I am sure you are aware that its initial name – levant does not include Syria where you claim it formed.
Its not even credible to do this debate and you must be trolling no one is this ignorant or daft.

the full quote look how long it takes to mention a presence in Syria
Your view is as wrong as wrong can be- its not an opinion it is just wrong.

The Islamic State, also widely known as ISIS, ISIL and Da?esh,[91] originated as Jama’at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999*. This group was the forerunner of Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn—commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI)—a group formed by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi in 2004 which took part in the Iraqi insurgency against American-led forces and their Iraqi allies following the 2003 invasion of Iraq. During the 2003–2011 Iraq War, it joined other Sunni insurgent groups to form the Mujahideen Shura Council, which consolidated further into the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI /?a?s?/) shortly afterwards.[92] At its height it enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Nineveh, Kirkuk, most of Salah ad Din, parts of Babil, Diyala and Baghdad, and claimed Baqubah as a capital city.[93][94][95][96] However, the violent attempts by the Islamic State of Iraq to govern its territory led to a backlash from Sunni Iraqis and other insurgent groups in around 2008 which helped to propel the Awakening movement and a temporary decline in the group.[92][97] In April 2013, the group changed its name to the Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham.
As ISIS, the group grew significantly under the leadership of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, gaining support in Iraq as a result of alleged economic and political discrimination against Iraqi Sunnis. Then, after entering the Syrian Civil War, it established a large presence in the Syrian governorates of Ar-Raqqah, Idlib, Deir ez-Zor and Aleppo

* it started in Jordan but grew in Iraw during the insurgency when, in your view, we were quelling them apparently

you have got to be trolling

if the Iraqi military had stood firm they could and should have dealt with the insurgence and kept it within Syria

and it’s weird that the Iraqi military didn’t stand firm considering how quiet Iraq has been since the US withdrawal, right?

As I said if the Iraqi military had stood firm they could and should have dealt with the insurgence and kept it within Syria.

If….

If…

If…

Again… Heres where the difference between what the government want to tell us, and actual reality comes into play again.

What the government would have you believe – that the Iraq army is a highly trained fighting force
The reality* – the Iraq army is an absolute joke. Made up of people desperate for a salary as there are no other jobs.

What were the chances that they were going to stand up to a group of highly motivated, tooled up psychotic, blood-thirsty lunatics, quite happy to die for the cause? Would you? No… me neither.

Its just yet another example of the fantasy world that you appear to live in.

*I know this from a few of my mates who got back from tours there. One of whom was there specifically to train the Iraq army. He was pretty scathing about their abilities, and motivation.

Yeah but what I’m saying is that the skills and training don’t just *puff* in a cloud of smoke, and you can maintain these skills and the forces trained with these skills (albeit a lot smaller) but not use them in the interventionist way that they are now.

They kind of do. Skillfade. That’s why they train. It does go further; logistics, engineering infrastructure capabilities. A defence force would be trained in defensive tactics, kit and raining based on uk (temperate) environments.
What I’m saying is; if you want a force capable of rapid deployment (or even just deployment) they will be open for (ab)use for offensive ops. Cost savings WILL result in a reduction in capability. We don’t have a large military at present. Make no mistake; it’s been cut heavily. We’re not a million miles from the absolute bare minimum.

Cool I’m with you now.

The problem I have is the way it’s used, but as you say my ‘solution’ still open to the same interventionist tactics we’ve used recently.

The thing that resonates most with me when talking about this is Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution (although they are looking at amending with the renewed expansionist policy of China):

Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.

(2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

EDIT – Oh and

kit and raining based on uk (temperate) environments.

Snigger.

wrecker – Member

Cost savings WILL result in a reduction in capability. We don’t have a large military at present. Make no mistake; it’s been cut heavily. We’re not a million miles from the absolute bare minimum.

I dunno, we could stop pissing away money on white elephants- Trident soaks up 6% of the current budget, the estimated cost just to build and equip the replacements is almost exactly a year’s defence budget. That’s a lot of blackjack and hookers.

Isis will be gone in less than 2 years time.
If they are as bad and as ruthless as they are made out to be then there is no interests to be served by dealing with them, they cannot exist/continue to fight without a supply chain, if the Western Intelligence cannot identify and take action against the supply chain then they are clearly unintelligent.

It’s not a conventional army with centralised supply though.

Good luck in trying to secure the borders in the middle east

It’s not a conventional army with centralised supply though

Agreed, they will however require some form of organised and reliable supply arrangements, they may be robbing it from their conquests as they go along, however that wont last forever. They are dependant upon fuel, food, ammunition, medical and reinforcements, surely the good old US of A have this monitored or at least have the capability to track them?

Maybe I`ve got it wrong, maybe we just haven’t got the capability.

Brilliant! The news is full of graphics of fighter planes on maps, and grainy footage of surgical strikes!

I love all that shit, me! It’s so exciting! Top Gun is on Film 4 later too! Cool!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY[/video]

The problem I have is the way it’s used,

Me too mate. Lack of checks and balances IMHO.

Oooh. Anjem Choudary arrested by CT po-lice. I do hope they have something which they can make stick.

@wrecker, he is indeed a thoroughly unpleasant individual, when you hear him speak it’s clear what a terrible and very dangerous person he is. He recently said he could not feel sorry for the British hostages as the Quarn doesn’t allow a Muslim to feel sorrow for a non-Muslim. Total abuse of the book. He’s strongly disliked by moderate Muslims who quite rightly see the damage he does to Islam. I too hope there is something that will stick.

He’s clearly an “enabler”, and one I’d like to see the back of, by whatever means.

The motion which will be voted on in Parliament – Iraq only, no Syria and no troops on the ground in a combat role (so SAS spotters etc allowed)

This House:

• Condemns the barbaric acts of Isil against the peoples of Iraq including the Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Christians and Yazidi and the humanitarian crisis this is causing

• Recognises the clear threat Isil pose to the territorial integrity of Iraq and the request from the government of Iraq for military support from the international community and the specific request to the UK government for such support

• Further recognises the threat Isil poses to wider international security and the UK directly through its sponsorship of terrorist attacks and its murder of a British hostage

• Acknowledges the broad coalition contributing to military support of the government of Iraq, including countries throughout the Middle East

• Further acknowledges the request of the government of Iraq for international support to defend itself against the threat Isil poses to Iraq and its citizens, and the clear legal basis that this provides for action in Iraq

• Notes that this motion does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign, and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in parliament

• Accordingly supports her majesty’s government, working with allies, in supporting the government of Iraq in protecting civilians and restoring its territorial integrity, including the use of UK air strikes to support Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces’ efforts against Isil in Iraq

• Notes that her majesty’s government will not deploy UK troops in ground combat operations

• Offers its wholehearted support to the men and women of her majesty’s armed forces.

Iraq only, no Syria

Not surprised. Dave’s just had a cosy up with the Iran boss. Looks like a good cop/bad cop approach by the UK and the US.

Didn’t the Serbs end up building phony tanks out of plywood and haystacks, then “camouflaging” them, which we then dutifully spent lots of money on destroying?

Hopefully this lot won’t be quite so cheap and devious.

They don’t have to make false tanks. They’ve got loads of them! And heavy artillery. And all manner of things the Iraqi army gave them when they ran off. Have you seen the actual figures? One Iraqi unit, just one of them, left behind 900 fully kitted out Humvees, along with a selection of heavy armour, with shed loads of ammunition for it all.

Given that any fool knows that these air strikes are pretty much useless without ‘boots on the ground’ to follow them up – you really don’t have to be a military strategist – and given that the bowling club at my local pub is more up to that particular job than the Iraqi ‘army’*, how do we see all this panning out then? Seriously? Welcome to the opening salvos of Gulf War 3. The sequel to the sequel.

I note the motion debated tomorrow is the usual vague waffle. I’m sure the debate will be just as muddle-headed and filled with vacuous posturing, with absolutely no clearly stated aims, and nothing even remotely resembling a long term strategy. Just like last time. Hey ho! Off we go, blundering into another open ended conflict, trailing along behind the Americans, pathetically desperate for approval.

Absolute stupidity!!!!

* the word is used figuratively in this instance, and does not infer any actual military capability.

The good thing about all that armour and heavy arty is that it’s difficult to hide. With good int from the ground (and there are blokes on the ground), they could make a big dent in it.

…. And so the war porn begins….

Good intel from the ground? We haven’t got a ****ing clue what’s going on ‘on the ground’!!! Do you fancy going having a look? Somehow I don’t think there’s going to be many volunteers for that particular job! The massed ranks of the legendarily brave, courageous and committed Iraqi army perhaps?

If you don’t think that there are plenty of peeps over there, you are very naive. It’s not porn, it’s what some people do for a job. Just because it’s not broadcasted (for obvious reasons) don’t think it’s not happening.

If you don’t think that there are plenty of peeps over there, you are very naive.

The good news is that they never get captured. That would be embarrassing.

They do get captured. Sometimes they get photographed too. Both happened in Libya as was widely reported.

Both happened in Libya as was widely reported.

You mean that time when intelligence was so pisspoor that the SAS thought they would be welcomed with open arms by the Libyan rebels ?

Libya: inside the SAS operation that went wrong

Tasked with escorting a diplomat to meet rebel Libyan forces and assessing the humanitarian situation on the ground, they did not, however, expect a hostile reception. [/b]

Yes that was embarrassing. Mind you intelligence on the situation in Libya has been a disaster from start to finish, no one predicted that Libya would descend into the chaos that it has.

Except of course for Stop the War Coalition and others who were opposed to the NATO bombing of Libya.

That’s the one ern couple of them got pinched by the rozzers in Iraq too. Still, lessons learned and all that eh?
There were plenty more successful missions which took place over there.

got pinched by the rozzers in Iraq

Before or after the fall of Saddam ? Don’t remember hearing about that one.

Ah, yes …. Libya. Another success story of western intervention. Another despot deposed, to be replaced by? Oh… Another load of Islamist nut-jobs. It’s all going really well, isn’t it?

Are we back in there next? When we’ve finished with this little spat?