Do they come up big or small etc. . .

I’m large in fox gloves, close fit

XL in 661’s

hand is 195mm wrist to tip if that helps

I’ve tried some on in the past and have i in my head I’m XL in these . . ?

hhhmmm tricky. The best example I can give is the Mrs Legend currently has 4 pairs of TLD Ace gloves on the go – the sizing varies wildly! In fact, to the point where one pair stretched and tore on the first ride when another set are quite baggy.

In your situation I’d go for the smaller pair (better to be tight than baggy) and if they really don’t fit just send them back