I myself protested over political stunts in hospitals

Yep, Cameron was clearly trying to pull a cunning little stunt.

project – Member

Hospitals are not for screen shots especially featuring people who arte trying to sell them off for the least money to their mates, good on that consultant.

Agreed.

Its a bloody hospital after all.
His problem was probably the bunch of story hungry camerafolk tramping all over. Good on him.

LOL great vid!

The bloke’s a ****.

The fact that he’s complained about the dress policy in the past highlights that his ‘outburst’ was a stunt on his part.

Given that the film crew were told they didn’t need to roll their sleeves up as they were not coming into contact with patients, and that Cameron and Clegg did, in my view means he should write an open letter of apology. Not only to those people who he shouted at, but his patients, and also his colleagues.

The bloke’s a ****.

Agreed. Ca(moron) is.

The bloke’s a ****.

The fact that he’s complained about the dress policy in the past highlights that his ‘outburst’ was a stunt on his part.

And why do you think David Cameron and Nick Clegg were in the hospital if it wasn’t a stunt on their part? ……..do you think that by coincidence they were visiting the same patient in the same hospital and the camera crew just happened to be there at the same time ?

David Cameron and Nick Clegg were clearly engaging in a political stunt, and David Nunn, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon, saw this as a not-to-be-missed opportunity to carry out his own political stunt, and expose what he sees as meaningless free window-dressing to tackle cross-infection in hospitals, whilst real measures which cost money are ignored.

Far from this exposing him as a ****, this stunt has shown that Mr Nunn is a shrewd man who doesn’t miss an opportunity when it presents itself. And imo everyone who uses the NHS should be grateful that he had the guts to carry it out.

He has certainly highlighted the problem and generated a discussion on the matter. Whilst he simultaneously buggered up David Cameron’s and Nick Clegg’s attempt to stage a slick and meaningless photo opportunity. Good on ya mate.

Mr Nunn is apparently a Daily Telegraph reader, and this is what he had to say on the matter in a letter to the Telegraph some time back :

Sir – The hospital in which I work imposed the new “dress code” some time ago. I now have to half undress to see my patients, and have certainly not been provided with any protective uniform, any more than I was provided with a white coat.

While I wholeheartedly endorse any measure to reduce the risk of infection, I cannot see this but as window dressing. The problem of cross-infection in hospitals in Britain is caused by an adherence to the use of open wards instead of individual rooms, and by the level of bed-occupancy caused by the reduction of total bed numbers, and the need to “hot-bed” to achieve government-dictated targets.

The target culture has driven the abandonment of commonsense practices, such as avoiding placing patients with infections in close proximity to others.

Until the control of hospital admissions is returned to the hands of clinicians, and the control of the hospital itself to a proper Matron, who rigorously inspects the place, the levels of cross-infection in the NHS will continue.

David Nunn, London SE3

Like I said, bare below the elbows is just a charade. If we’re going to play silly games then everyone should have to join in.

Hear Hear Jim.

We don’t have our own guidelines so have to use the ones set for hospitals, which of course is a whole different environment. Causes some interesting ideas which are again for ticking boxes.

ernie RESEARCHED and found a letter written by the angry chappy SOME TIME AGO in the Telegraph!!! 😯

Can’t compete with that…

I love how every post here gets polarised into ‘right vs left’ or indeed ‘god vs the futility of our brief existence on earth’. (yes, you Woppit)

Let’s not forget that lots of this NHS sell-off reform nonsense was started by NooLab a few years ago anyway. I bet flashy would be wetting his plus fours with laughter and indeed starting a thread on here if it had been eighteen months ago and it was Gordon Brown on the end of the doctor’s rant instead. Whereas I seem to remember ernie having the same level of scorn for underhand stealth privatisation whichever party it was trying to slip it in unnoticed.

Regarding Mr Nunn’s letter above and cross infection, how are hospitals supposed to suddenly switch from open wards to single rooms? Knock all the hospitals down and start again? Take the recently opened all singing QE Hospital in Birmingham. Long open curved wards, so staff cannot see from one end to t’other.

Long open curved wards, so staff cannot see from one end to t’other.

yep, we’ve got a couple like that too. PFI too, so freekin’ awesome* value for your money, taxpayers.

*sorry i meant ‘will cost you twice as much as if the SHA had paid for it up front in the first place, and tied into renting it for another 25 years’

julianwilson – Member
I love how every post here gets polarised into ‘right vs left’ or indeed ‘god vs the futility of our brief existence on earth’. (yes, you Woppit)

High praise indeed.

“bare below the elbows” has some sense to it. One of the issues used to be that it was very difficult to get male doctors to wash their hands properly because of the buttoned cuffs that they did not want to get wet or rollup. That has now gone. Its not so much the short sleeves prevent cross infection as long sleeve reduce proper handwashing.

And long ties trailing in everything and never being washed? Yuck

It’s this sort of prima-donna like behaviour that often makes it very hard for clinical teams to communicate and work together effectively.

In surgical teams it’s not uncommon to find this sort of character (note: not this individual), shouting down their colleagues at the mere suggestion that a surgical checklist should be followed, only for the patients to then pop out the other side with a serious adverse event.

High praise indeed.

*boom tish* 😀

Some time earlier
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2143680.stm

Let’s not forget that lots of this NHS sell-off reform nonsense was started by NooLab a few years ago anyway

Was it?

I very much doubt Labour had any intentions to carry out such wholesale destructive ‘reforms’ as the Tories. Seeing as how the majority of folk who work in the NHS are more likely to vote Labour, I can’t see how they do something that would alienate vast numbers of their voters…

People need to wake up and realise just what evil money-grabbing self-serving ****s the Tories are. Does anyone truly believe that they have this nation’s best interests at heart? really? Because if you do, then you are seriously deluded. Would you be interested in investing in some property on Mars?

Forget all that ‘Left v Right my chosen party’s better than yours’ crap; we have to worry about our nation being screwed completely by a bunch of scum who don’t give a toss about anyone but themselves.

Hmm, how can we prevent raising taxes which will affect and annoy our rich chums? I know, sell off the NHS! It’s only the plebs what use it anyway, we can afford private healthcare…

****s.

Elfin, please don’t think I am defending the present government.

I was posting SDP leaflets in people’s front doors when I was 10 (and they were remotely principled!), and have 12 years NHS service under my tunic. And I will be having a party when thatcher dies that you will be most welcome to come to.

But yes, nulab were slipping in all sorts of underhand nonsense before the general election, certainly much of the blurb in my first post was already happening 5 years ago, and the breakup of PCT’s and GP contracting were all planned under labour. And I would be moaning just as much about it under a labour government as I am now.

My ill-made point in that post was that the usual Toryboys on this forum only come out when it suits the Good Name Of The Conservative Party, whereas Ernie (and you to a lesser extent) will post up about ‘morally right vs wrong’ not ‘red vs blue’ as sometimes all the politicians are wrong.

FWIW ‘Reforms’ will not really save much in taxes. In extrememly limited fairness to the government, the object is a blindly and stupidly principles-driven reduction in the ‘state’, ie the taxes to go back into private enterprise and reduce the responsibility of central government for our health. Oh, and has the (I am sure unintended, yeah right) side effect of making rich people richer. The recent backtracking on keeping the health secretary ultimately responsible is very important IMO.

What are the Tory proposed reforms/sell offs anyway? Its not as if the last Labour government didn’t encourage the use in of PFI’s.

Scamper – the idea is to put GPs into consortium that then decide what healthcare work is done by what provider – private included. GPs do not have the expertise so private healthcare companies were gearing up to take on this role for them and some / much work would then go to private healthcare providers – basically changing he NHS from an organisation that does stuff to one that commissions other people to do stuff.

IE complete privatisation. No more NHS

IE complete privatisation. No more NHS

I call BS

I call BS

If in internetland it’s really that easy to disagree with someone who works in it and takes an active interest in it, then I call BS on your calling BS allthepies. 😉

Not sure he should be in that position – would you want him operating on you if he can get himself into an emotional state like that?

I take “no more NHS” to mean that the punters have to pay for healthcare at point of use. Do you really think that’s the plan of the current government ?

Well if you take that as your definition its not nessasarily the end.

If you take the definition of the NHS as a national service,planned,funded and organised to give comprehensive universal care in the most efficient manner than the Tory plans are the end of the NHS. They want to reduce it to a fragmented system of commissioning not doing and they allow the private health companies to cherry pick the profitable bits.

I wish people would stop calling NuLabour ‘left’.

Well, I’m sure there are many who’d like to see it that way. I doubt the Tories will be able to achieve very much very soon, but it’s the gradual erosion of the NHS that is a huge worry. And yes, as already mentioned, Labour are also complicit in this. Just that the Tories are far worse with this kind of thing.

NHS does not mean ‘free at point of use’, it means loads more than that. I’ll start us off with not-for-profit, accountable to the health secretary and standardisation of rules and operating procedures laid out by DOH. So yes, BS to your BS. 😀 [edit, oh, tj beat me to it]

FWIW, first-world contries with privatised or semi-privatised healthcare systems don’t have payment at point of use for all treatments/interventions. Health insurance and 2 tier medical treatment depending on your funds. You don’t have to pay to get in an ambulance in the states, but the treatment you are offered once in ED varies according to your insurance or lack of. Also when has NHS dentistry been free at point of use for all patients?

And long ties trailing in everything and never being washed? Yuck

what about stethoscopes? and the differences in ANTT performed at different sites? and reusable tourniquets?

any change that is meant to reduce infection should be evidence based and consistent with other protocol otherwise it’s pointless and undermined by other procedures

fontmoss – stethoscopes should be cleaned between patients – easy with an alcohol wipe never thought / heard owt about tourniquets. Presumable BP cuffs as well

You are right tho – should evidence based

I do clean it but even with cleaning it’s not in keeping with the concepts of hygiene being promoted

We have disposable tourniquets now and pretty good ones too as the others they tried were gash. Cuffs get cleaned between patients as does all reusable equipment, if they’re heavily contaminated they get sent for a deep clean.

but you’re still allowed to use reusable tourniquets and a lot of folk do, it’s the lack of consistency that annoys me

plus cleaning blue trays rather than having disposable ones?!

but you’re still allowed to use reusable tourniquets and a lot of folk do, it’s the lack of consistency that annoys me

We are but they have to be laundered between patients so not really practical. Yup it’s consistency that annoys me.

plus cleaning blue trays rather than having disposable ones?!

We’re moving away from disposable ones to ones you can clean. 😯

We’re moving away from disposable ones to ones you can clean

that’s what i meant, a cynic might say it’s motivated by money rather than what’s in the patient’s best interests

I should prob get back to studying rather than ranting 😉

Ooh that’s just a terrible suggestion.

Enjoy your studying.

And long ties trailing in everything and never being washed? Yuck

Quite a lot of evidence of bacterial infestation of doctors ties. Less evidence that they are the cause of patient infection but given what has been found on them I agree with the above statement and personally didn’t fancy continuing to wear one round my neck.

I have always hated ties, they always made me feel uncomfortable and I stopped wearing them about 8 years ago. Formal shirts with sleeves rolled up or short sleeves is not a terribly good look ( and bow ties frankly should be psychiatrists only ). Standard kit for me is now a polo shirt and chinos and nobody seems to feel that I am less useful as a result – indeed expressed opinion from the patients is universally in favour. Stethoscope does get cleaned regularly – alcohol wipes.

Problem with ties, suit jackets and white coats is that they tend to get washed/cleaned only rarely and they do reduce the likelihood of proper hand washing.

Mind you I do entirely agree that more important in reducing infection is not running at 100% bed occupancy and having a bed stock mainly or entirely consisting of single rooms, ideally ones which have the flexibility to manage patients regardless of how sick they are so they don’t have to be moved around from bed to bed and ward to ward. Plenty of evidence for that in the form of the movement for evidence based design. Always makes me despair that hospitals take the “cheap” option of multi bed spaces because it needs less nurses to care for the patients and it then costs them a packet in avoidable infections and increases in length of stay and readmission as a result.