Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 83 total)
  • Time Trials – advice please
  • KungFuPanda
    Free Member

    Hi all, I’ve started doing some ctt organised time trials this year after doing a few hill climbs last year. I’m finding it quite enjoyable and the general camaraderie at these events is great and puts me in mind of how mtb events used to be ten or fifteen years ago. If you havent tried a tt, give it a go! Lots of cake after!

    Anyway, I’m just using my fairly decent road bike at the moment and I’m down the bottom third of the results board. I dont want to buy a tt bike, but can anyone give me some idea of how much of an improvement in time say, a set of Planet X aero wheels might be worth?

    My best 10 mile time so far is 25.30, & 25 mile 1.08.40. Would like to go sub 25 for a 10 mile but finding it tough to hold high twenties mph and wondered if wheels would help much?

    Cheers for help. KFP

    njee20
    Free Member

    Clip on aero bars for the biggest bang for buck.

    wanmankylung
    Free Member

    Advice on TTs – get on the bike and PLF.

    richmars
    Full Member

    wanmankylung has it.
    Start fast, then take it up (at least for a 10).

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Done reasonably well a week ago.

    Lots of cake after!

    Ooh, where’s that? 🙂

    Losidan
    Free Member

    Go for an aero helmet before wheels if you don’t have one. They give a good aero benefit for little outlay. I took forty seconds off my ten times first time in one. That is way more than you would expect to gain but you never know. I reckon it is not unreasonable to expect 20 plus seconds minimum. Then cobble up a visor for it or dependant on what you get buy an aftermarket one. I have giro advantage.

    Next I would go for a skin suit before wheels. Big aero saving again for little cash.

    Look at your position. Key is getting your head down while still looking forward. It takes time to accustom to a position. Adam Topham’s advice (current bbar): think that you have just been hit over the head with an iron bar. Head down and chin forward. Then roll your shoulders up to your ears. The head is a big lump to get out of the wind to save watts.

    Your aim is to have the tail of your aero helmet onto your back to smooth the airflow. Use poor mans wind tunnel (your shadow on the road on a sunny day) to see how close you are.

    Going lower is not always best. It can be quicker to go higher but narrower.

    With regards to riding a ten I disagree. Start steady for the first sixty seconds and use the next minute to build to race speed. Start in a largish gear (I usually start in 53 x 16) so I can’t steam off at light speed.

    Focus on breathing and staying aero. You want to be at a pace that you “think” you can’t hold (but likely can) then the last mile absolutely drill it for all you are worth.

    One last tip…..embrace the pain. You will be getting lots of it.

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    Been considering doing an open TT myself, had a little experiment last week on my commute (15 miles) and aero bars seemed to be worth approx 0.5 mph for me. They were too high as I didn’t want to mess with my road bike setup so there’s maybe a bit more in it. One thing I found was even though my back was pretty much in the same position I could hold a much nicer constant power gripping the tri bars. Def worth a try.

    Don’t underestimate the aero! There’s a guy I ride with doing 25mph on a local lumpy 10 course, I’m stronger than him but no way I could do that on my current setup.

    butcher
    Full Member

    I was reading an article online somewhere the other week, where they tested each item for their advantages. Aero bars, skinsuit and helmet were on top.

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    Training is free and will have more impact at this stage of your fledgling TT career.
    I started with high 27’s and now down into the 24’s for lumpy rolly 10’s on a standard road bike, kit and helmet. Don’t bother with clip on bars. Three years of training and getting better at pacing them.

    charliemort
    Full Member

    it’s a strangely obsessive business

    my cheapo-ish TT ugrades to a normal road bike

    – tri bars. These bent me over too far so couldn’t stay on them, body angles all wrong, so
    – forward facing seatpost – moves me about 5 or 6 cm forward into more of a TT position. I use this with a second saddle (TT one so preserves me ‘nads) so easy swap over
    – over socks
    – pointy hat

    very hard to say what difference they have made

    getting skin suit (omg…….)

    what I really need is about 9 inches off my chest – 47 inch chest takes some pushing through the air

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/04/biggest-bang-for-your-buck-in-time-trial-equipment/

    heavy_rat
    Free Member

    Don’t spend too much on tri-bars as more than likely you’ll be hankering for a dedicated TT machine soon.

    Also fitting the tri-bars every week is quite annoying especially trying to the get the same position as the week before.

    g123456
    Free Member

    Its all about training. I was originally stuck at 25.30 then through coaching got down to sub 23. Tri bars will give you 30sec to 1min with no extra training. But the biggest gains are made through getting the hours in.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Aero bars make the most difference I think. If you can’t stay on them then try moving your saddle forward and tilting it down.

    I did a TT on Saturday and felt the bike was pretty fast, after I slammed and inverted the stem to get my aero bars low enough.

    stumpy01
    Full Member

    There was a good thread about this around a week or two ago, but I’ll be boogered if I can find it….

    have a search, ‘cos it went on for several pages.

    warton
    Free Member

    Aero Bars
    Aero helmet
    Work on position
    Train at threshold

    you’ll easily go sub 25 if you do those 4 things.

    Studies have shown deep rim wheels and shoe covers are about the same for reducing time in a TT…

    my club 10 tomorrow, hoping for a PB, did 22.34PB on a slower course 2 weeks ago, dare I dream of a sub 22 (road bike with aero bars)

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    There was a good thread about this around a week or two ago, but I’ll be boogered if I can find it….

    Is that the one that Mr Blobby linked to about 8 posts above 😉

    #blokelooking

    MulletusMaximus
    Free Member

    Aero Helmet, Skinsuit and aero shoe covers will help but training for the right areas will be better.

    Couple of years ago I was in the same position and my 10 PB was 24 minutes with a ok level of fitness.
    Went into winter training specifically for the following TT season. I concentrated on thresholds and power. 2 x 20 minutes with 10 minutes rest. First set at 90 cadence and second set at 70 cadence. I did other things but this will really help. *Last season I took over three minutes off of my 10 PB at 21.06 and also a 54 minute 25.

    *This was helped with a lot of money wpent on a TT bike and Disc Wheel but you get the idea! 🙂

    Have a look at this Matt Botrill tips page too. Clicky

    This is a good read too with some useful links to training.

    Rusty-Shackleford
    Free Member

    stumpy01 – Member
    There was a good thread about this around a week or two ago, but I’ll be boogered if I can find it….

    ahem…

    mrblobby – Member
    Done reasonably well a week ago.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Aero Helmet, Skinsuit and aero shoe covers will help but training for the right areas will be better.

    I don’t think he’s looking to spend money INSTEAD of training 🙄

    Just about the most stupidly patronising bit of advice ever, and it’s always thrown around like it’s some profound insight.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Thought MM’s post was rather good.

    Training is obviously really important, what is often missed is training in the right areas. For TT specificity is very important. You really need to focus your work on the demands of TT, types of intervals, position on the bike, etc. Also we have a tendency to train the things we are good at and not the things we are bad at, as that’s a lot harder (often this is making good power on a TT bike in a good aero position.)

    MulletusMaximus
    Free Member

    I don’t think he’s looking to spend money INSTEAD of training

    Just about the most stupidly patronising bit of advice ever, and it’s always thrown around like it’s some profound insight.

    Multiple posts of people mentioning other pieces of kit and training and you pick out this one! 🙄

    I wasn’t meaning to be patronising to the OP as I’m sure they’ll realise that. But hey, this is the internet and it’s easy to pick up on things and post just to get a rise from someone!

    OP, apologies if that sounds patronising, it wasn’t meant to be.

    Back on topic.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Sorry MM 🙂

    Yes, specific training is always very important and I think people don’t realise this. They say ‘there’s no substitute for miles’ which is not really true. There’s no substitute for effective training, but that doesn’t necessarily mean simply riding more miles.

    DT78
    Free Member

    Im getting tempted to have a go to, my main worry is the n+1 call. Im already looking at frames and i havent even tried it yet.

    Question on position, i take it the hips are rolled more forward using the quads more if you are further forward / putting more pressure on nads?

    MulletusMaximus
    Free Member

    Question on position, i take it the hips are rolled more forward using the quads more if you are further forward / putting more pressure on nads?

    The basic body position for TTing is very similar to an aggressive road bike position. All you need to do is rotate your whole body forward on the axis of your pedals. So in theory your saddle will raise and go forward and you front position will drop. All body angles will be similar.

    Yes you might be prone to more pressure on the nads but there are good TT specific saddles available that help, though you would only notice the pressure on longer TT’s.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    DT78, can do. I’ve tried a few things, but I’m now sort of half and half rolling the hips forward and bending at the waist. Too much hip roll and I just didn’t feel planted enough on the saddle to make good power. TT specific saddles do help a lot when it comes to nad pressure. Though once sorted and adapted to a position it’s time to tweak for a “better” position (generally one that is more aero but still powerful.)

    The basic body position for TTing is very similar to an aggressive road bike position.

    A really nice benefit of a lot of TT specific adaptation is being able to set up the road bike like this.

    MulletusMaximus
    Free Member

    mrblobby, How did you get on with the grip tape, did you use it?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    i take it the hips are rolled more forward using the quads more if you are further forward / putting more pressure on nads?

    Well I move my saddle forwards and tilt it down quite a bit when I fit aero bars, otherwise the nose is in my perineum. I think this probably puts more pressyre on my shoulders and elbows but I do it so infrequently and only for 10 miles so I am not bothered enough to spend the time sorting it. I hate time trialling!

    xterramac
    Free Member

    best thing to improve your tt’ing is join timetrialforum! Just like singletrackworld only more aero, so it slices through the crap better

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Yes, thanks MM, I used it last season. Worked well in races though it did wear down my gloves a bit and scratched the paint on my car! Have taken it off now as the TT bike is on the turbo mostly so I’ve swapped it for something that’s more comfortable with bare hands (some of the thin DSP tape.) I’m tempted to try a bit on my saddle though suspect it would be too abrasive for the skin suit.

    best thing to improve your tt’ing is join timetrialforum! Just like singletrackworld only more aero, so it slices through the crap better

    Well worth a trawl through old threads on there. Loads of good stuff.

    warton
    Free Member

    With regards to riding a ten I disagree. Start steady for the first sixty seconds and use the next minute to build to race speed. Start in a largish gear (I usually start in 53 x 16) so I can’t steam off at light speed.

    I disagree. if you know what your threshold HR is, then surely getting up to that as quickly is possible is best? spending a minute getting up to threshold is a waste of a minute. sprint from the start and you’re hitting threshold in 20 secs (as long as you’re properly warmed up)

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    bang for buck yes aero bars ,skin suit and helmet

    but for significant % saved –

    bikerader did wind tunnel tests that showed a 25% reduction(was 77watts saved) in power required to stay at 40kph going from a spesh tarmac SL2 to a Spesh transition……

    that will be more noticable than the 9watts saved by the pointy cone hat ….. on both times and wallet !

    stumpy01
    Full Member

    theotherjonv – Member

    Is that the one that Mr Blobby linked to about 8 posts above

    Rusty Shackleford – Member

    ahem…

    Still trying to find that link….it’ll be around here somewhere….

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    bikerader did wind tunnel tests that showed a 25% reduction(was 77watts saved) in power required to stay at 40kph going from a spesh tarmac SL2 to a Spesh transition……

    Most of that due to the change of rider position though rather than the bike…?

    Edit… ah found the link. Actual bike looked to give about 15 of those 77 watts. Clip on bars alone saved 30 watts (well the resulting rider position did.) Pointy helmet about 10 watts.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Yup, the position was huge, wheels and helmet and bike were much smaller differences (and similar to one another IIRC)

    warton – Member
    With regards to riding a ten I disagree. Start steady for the first sixty seconds and use the next minute to build to race speed. Start in a largish gear (I usually start in 53 x 16) so I can’t steam off at light speed.
    I disagree. if you know what your threshold HR is, then surely getting up to that as quickly is possible is best? spending a minute getting up to threshold is a waste of a minute. sprint from the start and you’re hitting threshold in 20 secs (as long as you’re properly warmed up)

    Depends – no good to go over your threshold then have to recover.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Tarmac SL2 | TT2 helmet | clip-on aero bars

    0.256

    40.38

    261.0

    Transition | TT2 helmet | aero bars

    0.230

    40.05

    229.0

    sorry your right – the difference is 30 watts – so about 12% not 25% i misquoted that.

    Your 7watts comes from an erroneous data point they reckon as it should have been about 230watt for TT bike and road helmet not 260.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Yeah, trail_rat, I just spotted that, fixed above with a ninja edit 🙂

    Interesting figures, though probably worth noting that everyone is different and one persons savings will be different from another (body shape, shoulder width, head position, and all the resulting airflow issues.)

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    warton – Member

    I disagree. if you know what your threshold HR is, then surely getting up to that as quickly is possible is best? spending a minute getting up to threshold is a waste of a minute. sprint from the start and you’re hitting threshold in 20 secs (as long as you’re properly warmed up)

    You might disagree but you’d still be wrong choosing to approach your pacing like that most of the time.
    As I am sure everyone knows, Heart rate is a response to your output and takes quite a while to catch up. Aiming to hit your Heart rate threshold straight away is only possible by going straight past your threshold power and VO2max and into anaerobic territory.

    Some people might cope but for a lot it can finish their TT before its even started. Stay there too long and by the time you recover with your power dawdling at z2 or 3 (but heart rate probably still sitting high) you will have lost masses of time. And in a 10, there is no chance of recovering that time elsewhere.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Some people might cope but for a lot it can finish their TT before its even started.

    Yeah, it would finish me off, but then I have an old diesel motor 🙂 I’d aim to settle into my chosen race power as quickly as possible though. Will take my HR a few minutes to catch up.

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    Just for illustration for anyone who tends to go balls out in the first couple of minutes and can’t hold on for the distance… Recent TT with Steady climbing start. Took almost 3 minutes to settle the heart rate at Threshold HR levels. And as it was only a 10, I rode it with target power of appx 105% of FTP. So, say for a 25 where I would start off a little easier, it would in theory take longer for the HR to reach the plateau.


    TTPacing by barry_kellett99, on Flickr

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    You might disagree but you’d still be wrong choosing to approach your pacing like that most of the time.
    As I am sure everyone knows, Heart rate is a response to your output and takes quite a while to catch up. Aiming to hit your Heart rate threshold straight away is only possible by going straight past your threshold power and VO2max and into anaerobic territory.

    Some people might cope but for a lot it can finish their TT before its even started. Stay there too long and by the time you recover with your power dawdling at z2 or 3 (but heart rate probably still sitting high) you will have lost masses of time. And in a 10, there is no chance of recovering that time elsewhere.

    This +1, I’ve not done TT’s but on the turbo with trainerroad I was amazed how long it sometimes takes for HR to plateau when doing 100% FTP. It usualy then shoots up and stays high if I drift above FTP, so clearly I’m suffering trying to recoup that small gain for the rest of the interval and never really recovering.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 83 total)

The topic ‘Time Trials – advice please’ is closed to new replies.