Some very interesting responses here. Obviously some of you are quite au fait with economics, although it’s unwise to get too bogged down in numbers, as you can often miss the bigger picture. People aren’t just numbers and statistics. They have individual lives, experiences and needs which must also be considered. There are far too many people who’ve gained all their knowledge from textbooks, and not enough who’ve gained it through real lived experiences, who are making decisions that affect us all. We need a broader spread of knowledge and experience to work on solutions together.

There is no political solution that will bring about a perfect world where everything is lovely and everybody is happy. It’s not going to happen.

Politicians are short-termist incompetents. Money is made by self-interested individuals (either by producing goods, or manipulating the money supply) who, because of the nature of the human condition, get arranged in economic pyramid structures of different levels of wealth. The more ruthless survive and own the most, the weakest have nothing and go to the wall. Politics is just arguing over who gets to put the prettiest border around an ugly picture.

Well this is patently obvious to anyone with half a brain, not some earth-shatteringly amazing insight. And I don’t think anyone realistically expects a perfect utopia.

In the meantime, the least we could do is stop shouting and get a beer and some sunshine.

This is the kind of apathy that leads to situations like the current one; not enough people actively engaged in considering society around them, and leaving it for others to sort out. Fine if that’s all you want to do, but then don’t cry if you get beaten and robbed by some desperate drug addict looking for their next fix, ignored and abandoned by a society which would rather close it’s doors and shut itself away from other people’s problems.

so even where there is sufficient demand for change, no form of democratic system that is permitted by the bourgeoisie would allow them to lose their control of power

Hence the need for a new viable left-wing alternative to the current centre-right status quo. Seeing as how it’s historically the Left which has usually challenged and overthrown economic elites.

for all the doubters, its pertinent to note that the bolshevik party in russia only had five thousand members in 1915– spread throughout a continent, no access to tv, radio, mobile phone, internet etc– only things they had were belief in their cause, the right slogans that people identified with, an ability to print pamphlets, and a leadership that was willing and able to bring it all to fruition.

So , we have a ruling class unable to ‘rule’– an opposition that is not, but at the moment a vacuum where an alternative could gather momentum and ultimately thrive– and not through parliamentary democracy…….

Bit pointless in giving the example of the Bolshies and drawing a parallel with the UK, unless you think the answer is widespread murder and civil war!

“As Marxists, we have never been idol worshippers of formal democracy.”

Trotsky

“a revolution without firing squads is meaningless”

Lenin
(well, attributed to him the actual quote was ‘If we are not ready to shoot a saboteur and a White Guardist, what sort of great revolution is that? Nothing but talk and a bowl of mush’, but the paraphrased version rolls off the tongue a lot better)

That’s not a quote from Lenin. Lenin wrote very clearly and unambiguously exactly what he believed, and he wrote very extensively. So provide a quote from something he wrote and which can be applied to in the correct context.

EDIT : And yet again you edit one of your posts Z-11

And you’ll see that I edited it before you said anything Ernie, as I was looking up the quote – and the evidence that he said it was a direct quote recorded by Trosky, and retold in his book, ‘lenin’ published in 1925

Plus thats the second time you’ve denied that lenin ever wrote that, I never claimed he did, and its the second time I’ve given you the full source and context of what was said and who recorded it, but you still try to pull the wool over peoples eyes with a flat denial even though you knew damn well that you would get pwned, because the bloke who says he said it has a far, far better pedigree on the works of Lenin than you ever will!

Now, who are we going to believe – you, or the bloke who was in the room with him when he said it? 😉

And you’ll see that I edited it before you said anything Ernie, as I was looking up the quote

Don’t you think that you should have ‘looked up the quote’ before posting it ?

Still, you’re always having second thoughts and editing your posts, so no change there.

And who to believe ? ….how about believing Lenin himself ? I’m sure he knew himself exactly what he thought, and as I said, he wrote very clearly and unambiguously exactly what he believed, and he also wrote very extensively, so maybe relying on what he wrote would be more sensible that on hearsay which is rewritten to say something completely different, and which you now fully acknowledge after your edit.

Hitler also wrote widely, clearly and unambiguously exactly what he believed – but there’s no written proof that he ordered the murder of millions of Jews

Given the evidence against Lenin comes from one of the fellow leaders of the revolution, , and given the fact that its accepted Lenin signed orders for the shooting of 765 white guards, and given Lenin himself said in a recorded speech in March ’22:

“Permit us to put you before a firing squad for saying that. Either you refrain from expressing your views, or, if you insist on expressing your political views publicly in the present circumstances, when our position is far more difficult than it was when the white guards were directly attacking us, then you will have only yourselves to blame if we treat you as the worst and most pernicious white guard elements.”

I think I’ll prefer that evidence to your own socialist worker sanitised version of the truth!

Pwned!

Hitler also wrote widely, clearly and unambiguously exactly what he believed – but there’s no written proof that he ordered the murder of millions of Jews

What the hell are you talking about ?

You attributed a specific quote to Lenin, you didn’t simply make the claim that Lenin supported the use of firing squads.

If you are now simply claiming that Lenin supported the use of firing squads, then of course he did, in exactly the same way as the British government also did at that time.

But that wasn’t what you were saying, and well you know it.

.

Pwned!

Yeah right, I feel so “Pwned” 🙄

Jesus, there’s so much editing going on, I can’t follow this new fella rattrap’s posts. 😕

DD, I’d recommend just ignoring the thread and having a nice beer instead.

I’ve got Thornbridge Jaipur, and am about to cook steak.

thx1138 – Member

Because the right-wing ‘solution’ isn’t working.

What we have isn’t particularly right wing.
I think we need a proper right wing political party. 🙂

And please keep it civil and respectful.

ahem

UKIP votoers got off their narrow-minded bigoted arses to vote

Did somebody order a crate full off hippos? 🙂