Viewing 34 posts - 1 through 34 (of 34 total)
  • Thoughts on slack 29er hardtails?
  • austinburner
    Free Member

    Considering my next frame, probably Ti & am unsure about slack modern geometry?
    Recently had a go on a respectable brands Ti bike at the bike show. Admittedly this was not off-road but the slack 67.5 head angle felt strange & just felt like the front wheel would wash out real easy round the corners.
    I love the look of this particular frame but am unsure now I have rode it. Currently ride a P29er – thoughts & experiences would be welcome…..

    survivor
    Full Member

    My Sherpa runs the same HA I think. No complaints from me

    Absolute weapon on the descents and no issues with cornering. Can wander a little when climbing but who cares about that!

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    You need to load the front end with more weight and you may have to adapt your riding style to a more ‘ride the fork’ bias.

    If you had a car park pootle, it’s going to feel exactly like you describe and if you don’t weight the front the chances are it will wash out on you.

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    thepodge
    Free Member

    I’m on a 67 HA / 140 forks, love it and would consider going slacker just for curiosity but I live in the Peak where its mainly slow up and steep rocky down so depending on where / how you ride you may not want the same.

    I think all this modern geo stuff really needs a change in riding style to get the best out of it

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    Scienceofficer
    adapt your riding style to a more ‘ride the fork’ bias.

    As someone about to change from 100 to 120mm but also more used to old school geometry and, at times, can find a slacker HA makes you feel a bit like pushing a wheelbarrow, any advice on how to do this?

    Sorry for the thread hijack OP but I’m genuinely interested in this.

    thepodge
    Free Member

    Just put more weight over the front end to push it into the ground.

    Its taken me a while to adapt but I feel far more confident now.

    fizik
    Free Member

    67.5 isn’t that slack for a 29er hardtail particularly once you have considered fork sag.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    I doubt youll notice much of a difference with a 20mm taller fork, assuming youve dropped your bars to compensate for the extra height?

    Lower bars, longer front-centre and steeper seat tube angles are all design features to achieve this.

    You’re basically aiming to shift the weight distribution towards the front wheel a bit more.

    I’m no more qualified to comment about this stuff than any one else on here really. You can shunt you seat forwards a bit to help, but this can obviously affect cockpit fit.There’s a school of thought that more xc and trail riders sit behind the fork and let it take hits, but doing this can end up with not enough grip from the front wheel, resulting in wheel wash and less positive responses to steering input.

    Rob Cooksley described it best to me thus ‘imitate a gorillas posture. Elbows out, and lean on those bars!’ Grr.

    sideshow
    Free Member

    All this “adapting riding style” “weight further forwards” – I have been doing exactly this on my slack 29er full suss, and it’s great.

    But if I were to get a slacker hardtail I worry I’d be over the bars riding like that with 100mm fork travel and the rear end bouncing all over the place? Don’t those things fundamentally constrain you to keep your weight back a little?

    JackHammer
    Full Member

    I bought one of these

    [list]Suggested fork travel: 130-140mm
    -Headtube angle: 68°
    -Frame size: S/16.5″, M/17.5″, L/19″
    -Top tube (Effective): 16.5″/563mm, 17.5″/583mm, 19″/603mm
    -Seat tube: 16.5″/419.1mm, 17.5″/444.5mm, 19″/482.6mm
    -Seat tube angle: 73.5°
    -Chainstay: 420mm
    -BB Height: 315.3mm (-53mm)[/list]

    Still building it up at the moment.
    So Far

    Is as far as I have got.

    EDIT:
    Pressed send too early.

    Plan is to use it as a winter bike (probably be ready for summer now). Also to hone skillz on and go on more xc oriented rides, I originally was looking at the fun seeker 29 which was the 100-130mm travel frame but it sold out in my size before I made up my mind.

    It’s got a 45mm stem on it (I think), with a flat bar which in theory should help keep the weight distribution neutral.

    Itching to finish it and get riding.

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    Thanks guys.

    I’m not going that slack in reality but already feels different to my other (fat)bike.

    Don’t mind the front end being a tad taller. Just debating if I switch from a 60mm stem to a 50mm I gave in the spares bin. Although I think it might shorten it too much with the movement of the saddle.*

    *recommended due to the ST angle change.

    ahwiles
    Free Member

    my thoughts?

    1) the uptake of longer reach/top-tube designs has rendered silly slack head angles obsolete

    now we can have our long front-centres (for stability and confidence when it gets steep) without the appalling slow speed handling.

    2) head angle itself is irrelevant. Things like reach / fork length / trail / etc. are important, the head angle is just the line that joins those dots, so to speak.

    of course, i’m totally wrong, as i’m sure someone will explain vehemently…

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    I’m yet to be fully convinced by the ‘low’ and ‘long’ aspect of ‘Long, slack, low’. It’s fine for railing on smooth-moderate type trails, but when it’s bouldery and steppy, I feel like I’m a bit too stretched and it might be better to be a bit shorter to make weight shifts quicker and easier. Maybe I’m just getting old.

    BillOddie
    Full Member

    Yeah, 67.5 isn’t really slack, though undoubetably it will feel a fair bit slacker that a P29.

    It’s the same as my Chromag, which I wouldn’t say is slack having ridden a daft slack ragley 26er before it.

    Has to be said that with a 29er I don’t feel the need for the bike to be as slack, though Chromag have knocked a degree and a half off the Headtube angle on the new version of the Rootdown.

    thepodge
    Free Member

    Normal Man – I’m not going that slack in reality but already feels different to my other (fat)bike.

    Different isn’t the same as wrong, lots of people have tried my bike and hated it but its nothing like theirs so of course it will feel wrong to them.

    BillOddie
    Full Member

    2) head angle itself is irrelevant. Things like reach / fork length / trail / etc. are important, the head angle is just the line that joins those dots, so to speak.

    Less important on FS bikes but on a hardtail head angles that are too steep with too long a fork results in tuck under.

    vondally
    Free Member

    Having recently sold my Ritchey p 29 ( and still regretting it massively) I think with a 120mm fork it was a blast for trail riding, head angle was 68 ish not too slack and worked fine on the ups,it is an outstanding hardtail.

    As above head angle is only one thing, long travel forks 140 plus create as STW said in Swarf spline review,cheques the rear cannot cash, as did science officer in his quarterhorse review, added to a seriously slack head angle their is a really need to readjust your body position. For me it was not just about weighting the front but being central on the bike with better weight distribution….. Longer top tube and short stem helps this…. Plus being a more active rider, pumping the trail and so on.

    Caveat,…. I know nothing and am a totally unskilled rider after 25 years riding mountain bikes but with neck and back compressions and fusions I do not want a OTB momnet.

    JackHammer
    Full Member

    cheques the rear cannot cash

    I am wary of this… If it doesnt work out I’ll probably fork out for a lower travel frame, swap the bits over and sell/lower the forks.

    BillOddie
    Full Member

    cheques the rear cannot cash

    Yeah, found that on a 150mm travel 26er more than the 140mm 29er.

    The back wheel doesn’t get hung up on stuff as much.

    Worth noting the forks on the 26er were RS Rev RLTs and on the 29er a Pike RCT3, a more capable for for sure.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    cheques the rear cannot cash

    True, it’s certainly more common on this type of hardtail, but it’s a consequence of the characteristics of a hardtail in general. It’s as much a function of rider skill and what sort of bike they’re riding as anything. Getting a shorter travel bike may limit your speed a bit and help reduce it, but so would getting a tougher tyre, using a full susser or becoming a better, more dynamic rider instead.

    It’s what I was alluding to in my QH review. Barney’s review too really. In fact what he and I are both really saying is that we’re not good enough to deal with back wheel management in the rough, relative to what the front can lead us into.

    thepodge
    Free Member

    cheques the rear cannot cash

    Its funny as I find I’m more confident on my 140 hardtail 29er than I was on my 140/125 full suspension 26er but I think a lot of that is due to longer frames, slacker HA and just being a better rider than a few years ago.

    However this confidence does frighten the crap out of me sometimes… horses for courses.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    For sure! Which is why it happens!

    I constantly find myself rolling into things on the QH thinking ‘I’d have not done this on the FS 2 years ago’ paaarp.

    austinburner
    Free Member

    Thanks all – useful insights.
    Vondally, what are you now riding instead of the P29er?

    JackHammer
    Full Member

    I’ve never ridden a HT properly offroad, could an interesting experience…

    vondally
    Free Member

    Went to a Yeti SB 95 with 150 mm fork…. Only just done 250 miles on it so still getting use to it. Head angle is slack so going up is slower

    Ritchey was a fab bike regret selling it

    Thoughts here

    ritchey

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    @thepodge – very true. Guess it’s getting me (or my mindset when on a particular bike) to change.

    austinburner
    Free Member

    Kinesis Sync or Titus Fireline?

    Gotama
    Free Member

    I’m currently riding a long hardtail with a 66 degree head angle with a 120mm fork, designed for fun on the downs rather than xc race machine. No downsides as far as I can tell. I prefer a shorter fork on a hardtail as I find it easier to pop the bike around and I hate the diving feeling of a long fork. I’d love to have a go on a BTR Ranger with the 100mm travel they build around in 29er spec.

    Gotama
    Free Member

    Incidentally scienceofficer I find that the significantly longer reach on my current frame (490) makes the bike feel far more stable when you get into those fast ‘oh sh….’ moments compared to the quarterhorse I had before.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    On my second one now.First A Yelli Screamy and now a longer/lower/slacker Scout 29 (with a fs in between).
    I naturally ride ‘over the front’ regardless of what bike I’m on so never really had to adapt much.And as a rule the rear wheel usually follows the front end so I leave it to itself and deal with the aftermath (damage) later.
    Only had 2 rides on the NP so far but already done everything I’d do on the FS (the big-ish roller to roller gap might have taken an enormous case and a 2nd helping to crack).
    I’m thinking the inevitable 3rd iteration will be a tad slacker,quite a bit longer again and about the same height (maybe a shorter arse end).And possibly titanium.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    Gotama – what have you got? I quite fancy that last fast forward, but cash wise I have to live with the horse for a year or so.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    If the Fast Forward had’nt been delayed (or I had a job when it as on kickstarter)….or if I could guaranteed that my steerer was long enough>I would have got one.

    Gotama
    Free Member

    Gotama – what have you got?

    I bought the Swarf that Barney had on test for the magazine. I’m just over 6ft 3 so similar in height. It rides brilliantly albeit I get the bar height he had by using a 35 mm riser rather than jacking the fork up to 140mm for the reasons mentioned above. Biggest difference is how stable it feels. On the QH I felt like there was a narrow margin between too far forward and too far back but the longer reach gives much more room to move around before you feel like you’re too far one way. I don’t find the length a hindrance at all on our twisty Surrey hills stuff, perhaps a bit more effort on tighter stuff but it’s just a different way of riding. Much happier on jumps and drops as well.

    I looked at the Last, seems a great frame for the price and would have been tempted had the Swarf not been available.

    Austin….. If you happen to be local and tall then you’re welcome to try the Swarf to get an idea if you want.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    Food for thought, ta. I agree about the narrow margin feeling on the horse. The more I live with it, the more it becomes apparent. I keep wanting to put a longer stem on it, but that will ruin it.

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