see it as a consideration. Not the deciding factor.

back-pedalling trot.

Well Hague is a bit of an exception (Clarke too to a lesser extent), as he is a tory you wouldn't immediately pour salt on 😉

@grumm, I get that to an extent, but I suspect there is also a bit of the networking and "people like us" effect that helps as well. (And the schools like Eton, Harrow Charterhouse etc do provide a very very good education, as they ought to given how much they cost*)

*Pretty similar to the US health system vs the NHS, the US system is fantastic, for the people that can afford it, the NHS isn't quite as good, but I know where I'd rather be.

No back peddling Stoner, I had already said : "Tam Dalyell went to Eton Stoner – there was nothing wrong with him in that respect."

I went to public school*. Does that make me a STW pariah and ripe for a future career in politics? If it helps, I've lost touch with everyone I sent to school with.

🙂

*Not a good one like Eton et al. Just one where rich farmers sent their thick offspring before training them to articfially inseminate cattle. I was the exception, of course, being neither rich nor thick (nor a farmer, come to that). And I'm pretty sure I've never artificially inseminated anything….

Eton College provides a higher quality of education.

Is that actually true? Private schools provide an education that is very much targeted towards getting people into a particular set of 'top universities'.

I know at Cambridge in the late 90s (I'm sure there's more recent research about this, but I don't know), private school educated people did significantly worse in their degrees on average than state school educated pupils, these statistics were used to justify the suggestion that perhaps they try and attract more state pupils. It kind of suggests that there isn't a massive load of evidence for private schools making people cleverer, they are just good at making people look cleverer in university application and pushing them hard / spoon feeding them to pass A levels.

Joe

It seems to me there's an awful lot of people out of work at the moment. Until ministers emulate this situation I fail to see how they're in the same boat as the rest of us.

I suspect you'll find that the Tories' plan is to put a lot of the current ministers out of work if that makes you feel any better.

Is that actually true? …………private school educated people did significantly worse in their degrees on average than state school educated pupils

Yes, that's a well known fact. And it proves the point that public schools such a Eton, provide a higher quality of education.

Because whilst their pupils are perhaps not as bright, they have a clear advantage over state pupils when it comes a A levels etc results. Once they are on a level playing field with everyone else, they do no better – in fact worst.

Private universities might be the solution for them.

Cameron has already committed to reducing the number of Ministers and MP's after the election – not to mention stopping the use of unelected Lords that sit in Cabinet e.g. Mandelson, but can't be held to account by Parliament's oversight arrangements or the electorate.

the use of unelected Lords that sit in Cabinet e.g. Mandelson, but can't be held to account by Parliament's oversight arrangements or the electorate.

Unfortunately it's often only the unelected Lords that block some of the more loony and anti-democratic legislation proposed by the government.

but can't be held to account by Parliament's oversight arrangements or the electorate.

You mean the Government who use unelected lords in the cabinet can't be voted out of power by the electorate?

Yes, that's a well known fact. And it proves the point that public schools such a Eton, provide a higher quality of education.

Because whilst their pupils are perhaps not being as bright, they have a clear advantage over state pupils when it comes a A levels etc results. Once they are on a level playing field with everyone else, they do no better – in fact worst.

No it doesn't prove that they provide better education. It proves that private schools make you better at A Levels. It also provides good evidence that private schools don't make you actually more educated in any long term way, which is what I'd argue a good education should be about – about educating you for things you will do in the future, for the rest of your life beyond the school, preparing kids for the future, not just about teaching people for one test in a way that is not much use once you leave school, and certainly not something that leaves you not very well prepared for their next stage of education.

Joe

"Is that actually true? …………private school educated people did significantly worse in their degrees on average than state school educated pupils"

Yes, that's a well known fact.
Actually no it's not. It's a well known fact that given the same A level grades the privately educated people do slightly worse than the state school people, which isn't the same thing at all (given that private school pupils in general get higher A level grades).

Of course I did my bit to disprove that with brilliant A levels from a state school and then a rubbish degree classification 😉

aracer you're talking about actual issues for once not just paraphrasing 'laws' from wikipedia – are you feeling ok? 😛

Actually no it's not. It's a well known fact that given the same A level grades the privately educated people do slightly worse than the state school people, which isn't the same thing at all (given that private school pupils in general get higher A level grades).

You missed that it was at a particular university (Cambridge in that particular example). Students who get into that university from private schools do worse than those from state schools. They do have the same A level grades (almost everyone there has at least AAA at A-Level), but that isn't really that relevant to the argument that people from private schools find it easier to get into universities.

Joe

No it doesn't prove that they provide better education.

Well I took 'good education' as meaning passing exams. That's what the government/media/joe public usually mean.

But if by 'good education' you mean the stuff like what I learnt in the University of Life (BSc in Crossing Busy Streets) then obviously no.

Have I touched a nerve, grumm?

Actually no it's not. It's a well known fact that given the same A level grades the privately educated people do slightly worse than the state school people,

That's exactly what I said Aracer. Or can you see a difference ? ……pardon me for being a bit fik if you can 😕

You missed that it was at a particular university (Cambridge in that particular example). Students who get into that university from private schools do worse than those from state schools. They do have the same A level grades (almost everyone there has at least AAA at A-Level)

Didn't really miss that – was just replying to GG with his "well known fact". Even looking at that example, you've got to be careful when saying that "students… from private schools do worse", since you're selecting from those who made it to Cambridge when arguably you should be selecting from those who enter the schooling system, and I'd suggest that a far higher proportion of people who went to private school get a first from Cambridge than of people who went to state school.

"You missed that it was at a particular university (Cambridge in that particular example). Students who get into that university from private schools do worse than those from state schools."

IMO it is much easier to get the grades required by Cambridge at a private school, "generally" better facilities, more peer pressure, longer week (6 days) etc.
In order to get 3 As at A level in a comprehensive school I suggest you need to be a highly self motivated individual.
This will also influence this statistic I think, most private (certainly boarding school) kids will have been in a very disciplined environment and will not have developed the self motiviation of the kid from a comprehensive.

That's exactly what I said Aracer.

No it's not – your snippage suggested not only that they did "significantly worse", but also implied that the average private school pupils going to university did worse than the average state school pupil going to university, when that's only true if you normalise based on A level grades.

was just replying to GG with his "well known fact".

And which you apparently agreed with 😕

Edit : You've answered now. I never said "they did "significantly worse". Don't make things up.

that's only true if you normalise based on A level grades

Well of course …….. how else would you make the comparison ffs ? 😕

If you think I'm agreeing with you, then why did you suggest "Private universities might be the solution for them.", given I'm busy making the point that the average private school person going to university (all universities) actually does better than the average state pupil?

I never said "they did "significantly worse". Don't make things up.

Try reading the quote (as you snipped it) to which you said "Yes, that's a well known fact." I can accept that's not what you meant, but it's what came out.

Of course if we're going to get all pedantic over this, I never said that you said "they did significantly worse" 😉

I should probably apologise for just replying to a single post without reading the context – couldn't be bothered with most of this thread, knowing it would have just descended into the same old STW argument (has anybody posted the standard Eton piccy yet?) However if you're going to reply with a quote you really should make your post stand up on its own with what's been quoted rather than rely on the context you've snipped!

*Laughs at the state school plebbers arguing about public schools despite clearly having no direct experience*

😉

Just on this public school thing – didn't Blair go to public school?

And is it not the case that the last three Conservative Prime Ministers didn't? (Heath, Thatcher, Major).

I'd rather have McMillan than Thatcher, if we're doing Private vs State educated Tory party leaders…

Sorry aracer, I can't quite follow what you're on about. And tbh I can't be arsed to make the effort.

Although I will point out that you appear to be talking about "private" schools. I'm not. I'm talking about "public" schools. Big difference. Many private schools are shite imo, I'm not sure if that can be said about public schools.

Isnt a more telling measure of toffness, the work theyve done before they become an MP?

I will never vote for a bod whos gone from uni to researcher etc or just worked for daddy.

Hague made his own business before becoming an MP as do many of them. THe profesionalisation of the politician is the real problem here……..

Is that "public" schools rather than public schools ernie?

profesionalisation

😀
Alert the OED please someone, new word coined!! (I like it).

Fair enough GG – it seems you meant the same as me (despite that "private universities" jibe), even if that's not what came out. Even ignoring the fact everybody else has been using the term "private" rather than "public", I'm not totally sure I agree with you about that – whilst there may be some rubbish private schools, it's far from the norm, and the normally quoted stats about uni entrance etc. are all about private schools (including public ones in that description).

In a bizarre reverse snobbery twist, I'm actually slightly suspicious about the products of public school – was friends with plenty of privately educated people at uni, but to my knowledge the only products of public schools I met were idiots (not that I tended to move in those circles – whilst there were plenty at my uni, I'm guessing public schools didn't produce that many engineers and they didn't tend to join the middle class clubs I was in). I'd prefer a PM who didn't go to Eton, but then I'd much rather just have the best person for the job irrespective of where they were educated, and I certainly don't think his misfortune disqualifies him.

I’m becoming increasingly disillusioned with politicians of all flavours.

I don’t think I could ever convince myself to vote Tory though – I remember one saying that public transport should be abolished, as it was only used by school children and the elderly, everyone else could drive, and another arguing against the introduction of the minimum wage, because it was “pointless as no-one earns less than £5 an hour anyway”. I was working my way through uni at the time, on £3.21 an hour…

I was tempted when I hit 18 to vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party, purely because their manifesto included funding for high-visibility waistcoats for the deer of Cannock Chase, and because they had a cat as one of their leading figures. If you can’t trust politicians to spend money sensibly, you might as well vote for someone who will spend it entertainingly!

"All animals are in this together, but some animals are, er, more in it together than others."

So the class system is alive and well then?

I don't care about education but maybe that's because I don't have a chip on my shoulder and am not a snob? I went to some good schools on the assisted place scheme – aren't I lucky…?!