These People Being Held in Iraq For Ransom - Should we be doing any more to help

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These People Being Held in Iraq For Ransom - Should we be doing any more to help

21 posts & 7 voices | Started 2 years ago by TheLittlestHobo | Latest reply from TheLittlestHobo

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TheLittlestHobo - Member

TBH i see this as old news. It happened about 2yrs ago and it has only reared its head recently with the release of a couple of bodies.

My opinion at the time was that they took the extra 'danger' money and should live with the consequences. I find it rather distastefull when the people family come on saying that the government should be negotiating with these animals. Lets face it, you dont go out there to work for national pride, you go for the big money and as such i dont think they really give their families a second thought. Myself and my wife couldnt start to contemplate such a working arrangement as i do not value money and lifestyle over time spent with my family. Simple as that.

With regards to the negotiating table. Thats a 100% no no. Same with the pirates attacking ships, kill them all and dont even talk to them. They kill our guys because we didnt release one of the prisoners. Well you can rest assured that i would happily run them through a mincing machine. You cannot be seen to even contemplate negotiating with these people. All it achieves is to give them a hint of a reason for doing it. It kinda justifies their actions in my eyes if we start to talk to them as a result.

So, even though its old news and not very pleasant, does anyone actually agree with talking to these animals? Does anyone think these captives actually deserves any special help. They knew the risks and took the money

Posted 2 years ago #
anokdale - Member

Close to my heart on this one, worked with that team back in 2005 and then again for a short period last year while the guys were just completing their first year in a cellar somewhere. The two guys coming back this week were good men as are the guys still in Iraq. Both have their reason for been there and the money was not for them but for their children who they both doted.

Yes they were paid, yes they appreciated the risk. Pride, the British operators out there are amongst the best in the World, you do not get our companies doing a Blackwater on the streets out there and the pride comes from keeping your clients safe and not blackening your own reputation.

The issue has not been quiet for 2 years, the FCO and authorities keep it that way for a reason, rest assured a lot is and has been attempted to get them out with many agencies working extremely hard to secure their release.

They deserve as much help as any British citizen should receive when in difficulty abroad but unless you have worked in a scenario such as that dont comment please, we all have our reasons for what we do.

They were set up in a big way that day and you cannot account for everything especially that scenario when you plan a task.

RIP Jason S and Jason C, deepest sympathies to your family and good luck to the remaining three.

Posted 2 years ago #
macmclaren - Member

Of course they deserve all the help that our government can give.

Just because they are in a foreign country earning good money does not mean they are any less deserving. They are not mercenaries. They are working for private companies as are hundreds of thousands of uk nationals.

Please explain the comments you have posted as i really cannot understand where the rational is that they do not deserve help.

And just for comment i have recently left the Royal Marines after 12 years and have good friends doing this work. I considered it myself but as i have a young family i could not justify the risks involved.

Posted 2 years ago #
CaptainFlashheart - Member

as such i dont think they really give their families a second thought.

You have no idea, do you? No idea at all.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

two guys coming back this week were good men as are the guys still in Iraq. Both have their reason for been there and the money was not for them but for their children who they both doted
Didnt say they werent good men. Regardless of who the money was for it was still for the money. Simple question to my wife, i can earn £10k at Tescos or i can earn £100k working in Iraq because its bloody dangerous. I will also be away from you and my kids for months if not years at a time. That doesnt equate to me.

Yes they were paid, yes they appreciated the risk. Pride, the British operators out there are amongst the best in the World, you do not get our companies doing a Blackwater on the streets out there and the pride comes from keeping your clients safe and not blackening your own reputation.
If it was all about pride they would be working for our armed forces. Its simply about money. Nothing wrong with that, but it has to be balanced out.

The issue has not been quiet for 2 years, the FCO and authorities keep it that way for a reason, rest assured a lot is and has been attempted to get them out with many agencies working extremely hard to secure their release
Sorry i meant in the press. I understand there will have been activity in the background

They deserve as much help as any British citizen should receive when in difficulty abroad but unless you have worked in a scenario such as that dont comment please, we all have our reasons for what we do.
Dont agree with that. If they were armed froces, i would expect everything possible (Except actually negotiating) to be done. I do not see them as casualties because they have the choice to be there.

RIP Jason S and Jason C, deepest sympathies to your family and good luck to the remaining three. Agreed.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

You have no idea, do you? No idea at all.
I have explained where i am coming from on this CFH. Now would you enlighten me as to how you deem them to have not put money before their own safety and dragging themselves away from their family. They had choice, they are not armed forces.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

They are not mercenaries. They are working for private companies as are hundreds of thousands of uk nationals.

Have they no choice in this? If they do then i do look at them as mercenaries

Posted 2 years ago #
macmclaren - Member

So basically they should be left to rot because they are doing a risky job for big bucks.

That really is the basis of your argument. That sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

Please explain the comments you have posted as i really cannot understand where the rational is that they do not deserve help.

And just for comment i have recently left the Royal Marines after 12 years and have good friends doing this work. I considered it myself but as i have a young family i could not justify the risks involved.

Errr, have you not just given the same reasoning that i did in your last statement. Just for the record, both my grandads served in the forces, my dad served in the forces, my two brothers were both in the forces. My younger brother has served twice in Iraq. I fully understand what its like to worry about family caught up in this.

Posted 2 years ago #
Teetosugars - Member

Please don't feed the Troll...

Posted 2 years ago #
BigDummy - Member

(I don't want to wade very deeply into Hobo's toxic mess, but) Those of you who do this sort of thing, presumably your wives/girlfriends understand the risks, benefits and what motivates you to do it, but is it always the case that your whole family "gets it" to the same extent?

The main criticism (intemperate, but understandably so) of the FCO this week has come from a parent who is not on the list as "next of kin" of one of the hostages. Is there an actual lack of confidence from the people doing these jobs and their immediate families, or is the problem that wider family is not bought in to someone doing such a dangerous job and then chucking blame around when things do go wrong?

Posted 2 years ago #
macmclaren - Member

A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict, who is not a national or a party to the conflict, and is "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party" - from wikipedia.

A serious point here. They are not taking part in the war. They are there to protect NGO's and other personnel who are there working in these countries.

Yes they are there for the money. So what? Get off your moral high-horse and stop judging people you have never met or a situation you very obviously have no idea about.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

So basically they should be left to rot because they are doing a risky job for big bucks.

That really is the basis of your argument. That sounds pretty disgusting to me.

I didnt say they should be left to rot. What i dont agree with is family members slating the government for what they have/havent done and condoning negotiating with these animals. All it does is undermine THE REST OF THE CONTRACTORS out there. If this has caught the publics eye and they are discussing negotiating, these people will be even more likely to do it again.

I put most of the blame on the press tbh. I would expect the depts involved will be keeping close relatives informed of developments. I do not believe the press are doing this for anything other than their own gain.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

Not a troll and please dont take any comment personally. Just interested in others opinions on this. I am allowed my own opinion as well as the next man.

Posted 2 years ago #
macmclaren - Member

Yes the families should not be slating the government or the FCO as im very sure they are working extremely hard on these guys behalf.

These negotiations have to be behind closed doors for a reason. Though the fact that the families are kept in the dark so much i dont agree with.

TheLittlestHobo - what is your argument here. Im still at a loss to understand it.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

Yes they are there for the money. So what? Get off your moral high-horse and stop judging people you have never met or a situation you very obviously have no idea about.

But you are allowed to judge? How does that work?

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

So, even though its old news and not very pleasant, does anyone actually agree with talking to these animals? Does anyone think these captives actually deserves any special help. They knew the risks and took the money

As above. When i say special treatment, i didnt say dont help them. I was kinda hinting at the Family mebers slating the governement for not doing more to negotiate which i totally dissagree with.

Posted 2 years ago #
anokdale - Member

TheLittlestHobo

Both Guys were Ex Forces but they left for whatever reason, i know Jason C has a disabled child, he could not earn that sort of money in the Forces, he did it to secure her future, paid the house off, adapted it for her needs and saved enough money to pay for the place he had just secured at medical school for himself, i believe that the task on that particular day would have been his last duty prior to a bit of leave before starting school. I have said more than enough but to say dont judge a book by the cover.

With regards to 100k a year, believe me there are not many on 100k a year.

The press were told to keep quiet for many reasons, they were extremely supportive and responsible in many ways and remain so.

With regards to helping British citizens abroad, your view would suggest those caught up in any trouble abroad such as a Military Coup did not warrent a Service Protected Evacuation because it was thier choice to be there ??? of if your holiday goes pear shaped because of natural disasters do you want, expect, deserve British Government assistance.

I work in Libya now, i bet your of view of Libya is different from mine and is based on what has happened and is reported, i can tell you things are different on the ground, so my point is what you read and see in the press are normally poles apart from reality and you should not base your opinion of the hostage situation in Iraq from what perceive, in reality it is different.

I am sure your best wishes to the famillies are genuine, thanks it is really sad within our network at the moment.

Posted 2 years ago #
yossarian - Member

as british nationals I would say that they deserve the same level of support from the government/consular services as any other british citizen gets.

And just for comment i have recently left the Royal Marines after 12 years and have good friends doing this work. I considered it myself but as i have a young family i could not justify the risks involved.

and I think for many people, that's the rub. No-one has forced them to take on this job, they did it for the money plain and simple. You can't use the argument of 'doing it for their kids' with any kind of justification. We all want to do the best for our families but that is (or should be) always weighed up against the risks involved. Working as private security in Iraq is an extremely risky job, so i'm afraid I have little sympathy for the situation they have found themselves in - they knew the risks. I do however have a lot of sympathy for their families, friends etc but I would be interested to hear from those who have done this kind of thing on how you square away the decision to do this kind of job against the potential consequences if it goes horribly wrong.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

Both Guys were Ex Forces but they left for whatever reason, i know Jason C has a disabled child, he could not earn that sort of money in the Forces, he did it to secure her future, paid the house off, adapted it for her needs and saved enough money to pay for the place he had just secured at medical school for himself, i believe that the task on that particular day would have been his last duty prior to a bit of leave before starting school. I have said more than enough but to say dont judge a book by the cover.

I totally understand that. But is he any different to the thousands of other brits in this country who have disabled children who dont decide to go and work in a dangerous place for extra money? I even understand the working abroad thing for the extra money, my dad worked in Zambia for 3yrs down a mine to earn enough money to buy our house which is why i was born there. I understand the need to earn money for the family. I dont think there is anything wrong with this if that is your CHOICE.

What is wrong is to use the press to try to force the governments hand and turn public opinion which actually makes the Contractors out there lives even more at risk. Whatever has or is being done to rescue these guys i wholeheartedly support EXCEPT negotiation.

Posted 2 years ago #
TheLittlestHobo - Member

CFH, where is your reply. Its easy to look down, but sometimes it helps if you back it up with some information.

Posted 2 years ago #

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