I think McBoo is in fact a Daily Mail bot
And the abuse starts.
That's not abuse, that's just a vaguely humorous opinion.
Shut up you idiot.
Now that was the point at which the abuse started.
Oh the ironing.
Chat Forum
The Tube is planning for driverless trains
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Posted 7 months ago #
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There's every possibility that the fault scenarios considered in the design of this Hypothetical Train of the Future are not the only one that will occur in service, that is when you need a trained Human!
Both means of controling a vehicle are imperfect, humans have the imagination and experience to make better decisions than a bit of software which only has it's latest patch to "Learn" from, Computers don't panic but they also only operate within their programming...You mean like lifts?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Sancho - Member
The £52k isnt a statement of current salaries, its a projected salary after the 5% increases are applied in the next five years.There are many modern driverless train systems that operate perfectly well in many parts of the world, but in the UK I dont have the confidence that we could implement one effectively and safely.
With the unions wanting their members looked after and the management wanting to maximise profit, I dont see safety being the primary concern in both parties, despite their rhetoric.
As they dont seem to be working together how can they implement a safe system for anything.I'd have to agree with that, I was recently working with a contractor Who had some wonderful stories some of which concerned design work he'd been involved in for control panel equipment for London Underground, He reckoned absolutely everything in the trains control area had to be fitted with anti tamper fixings because the drivers simpley couldn't be trusted not to sabotage their own train if they wanted a day off...
How true that anecdote is I don't know but it doesn't appear to be a healthy working relationship between management and workers...
Posted 7 months ago # -
aviation control systems are there to Present information and accomodate the crews decisions not overide them or cut them out of the loop
Not 100% true, modern aviation control systems are taking decisions away from the Pilot to stop him making a decision or manouvere which would put the plane in jeopardy.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I think the Channel Tunnel is the best we should hope for, its centrally controlled but has drivers to manage any issues that may arise.
Posted 7 months ago # -
scu98rkr - what you're struggling there with is called Net Present Value - just need to know your Internal Rate of Return. Trouble is as you don't understand that it's probably best not to set yourself up as an amateur economist.
Posted 7 months ago # -
So youre on your tube train, being driven by a computer, with no intelligence, or sight, and it catches fire, crashes, comes off the track, etc etc, who is going to tell the passengers what to do and protect the other lines for other trains.
Trains do crash and are sometimes allowed to crash due to negligence or malicious persons, how can a computer be made to deal with that.
Posted 7 months ago # -
This won't be happening for quite some time due to extensive remodelling of the network being required on both the track and signalling side of things.
Don't expect to see much happening before mid 2013 and thats just the remodelling works
Posted 7 months ago # -
I'm still trying to work out how there would leaves on the track of an underground railway?...
Posted 7 months ago # -
The leaves stick to the bogie wheels, and as most trains are disc braked, theres no brake block to clear them off, so the train skids or slides when stopping or starting off, this can cause the train to pass a signal at danger eg on RED.It also stops the train being detected by the track circuiting devices.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yeah, bit how did the leaves get to the underground trains? Which live underground?
Crazy!
Posted 7 months ago # -
Zedsdead - Not all the underground system is underground! Large parts of the Picadilly, District and Central lines are above ground.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I know. I just thought it was funny.
But still...
Posted 7 months ago # -
Its OK with Dockland Trains everything was designed for this purpose
Where as the Underground is fall of patched up net works, and up dated systems
mixed with the old.
Thats why so many things go wrong including the signalling !But something has to be done as there pay is getting way-out of control.
Posted 7 months ago # -
The average London salary is only slightly less than the average tube drivers salary (or more, depending on what figures you use)
The average salary is almost certainly a misleading figure though. Plenty of super-rich to skew the mean. What's the modal salary bracket?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Zedsdead - Member
I'm still trying to work out how there would leaves on the track of an underground railway?...
Bob Crowe puts them there
Posted 7 months ago # -
Elf in 'being spot on' shocker
Best
Tag
Ever.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Bob Crowe puts them there
I lolled!
Posted 7 months ago # -
Thats why so many things go wrong including the signalling
Now you see, its better for people to keep patching things up and charging/keeping staff in jobs than it is to fix it entirely.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Mild graphic content.
I wonder how an automated system would have dealt with the train I was driving one night earlier this year, which was crush loaded with a few hundred boisterous drunk M*n Un***d fans, people slightly inebriated going to Manchester for a night out and families who'd been to the seaside for the day going home.
About two thirds into the journey a bloke jumped in front of us committing suicide. There was about two seconds between him jumping out from behind a bridge and the impact noise, during which time I applied the emergency brakes and hit the emergency button on the cab radio. A train was coming towards us from a station about a mile away where it had just departed. I had to stop that train using emergency handsignals (no time to put detonators on the line).
In between stopping that train and arranging the emergency services giving directions to the nearest access point, the location of the incident, what they could expect to find, the location of my train etc, there were drunk idiots banging on the cab door moaning and being general d*cos. I had to tell them what had happened, that we wouldn't be moving for a while and try to reason with them not to leave the train whilst I went back to see if I could offer any first aid. Unfortunately the bloke was scattered over the entire 600 yards or so it had taken us to stop.
By the time the paramedic arrived the football lot had forced the train doors open and about two dozen were roaming on the track. Good job it wasn't an electrified area perhaps. If it had been, I'd have been the one who would have had to arrange for the traction current to be switched off in that area. The football lot had no idea where they were (only me and the guard would have known), where they were going or what risks there might be, nor that technically they were trespassing in what was at that point still technically a major crime scene.
Shortly after, about 50 coppers turned up. They helped with evacuating the passengers under my direction until railway incident officials and other on-call staff turned up. There were quite a lot of formalities to do as obviously I was the only person to have seen this bloke's last moments. A few months later I had to meet the guy's family at the inquest where I had to explain their son/brother/dad's last actions.
This is the sort of thing we are trained for and expected to deal with, don't even get me started on the shifts, the abuse we get, the bricks chucked at us at 100mph+. My basic pay isn't even 40k, the only reason tube drivers will potentially be earning more than some main line drivers in a few years time is because of the ridiculous prices in That London, that and the Tories don't want the boat rocking during the limpics.
Maybe some perspective.
Posted 7 months ago # -
cheburashka,
M*n Un***d fans,
people slightly inebriatedgoing to ManchesterThey must have been travelling up to a home game
Posted 7 months ago # -
Maybe some perspective.
Fair enough.
Surely London Tube drivers are getting paid according to the market rate, y'know, how bankers and that are paid?
I think the biggest problem here is that some people just don't seem to think others 'deserve' what they get paid, if those jobs seem somehow 'menial' and servile. Curious as to why those same people don't have a problem with other professions being 'overpaid'. As though they've categorised people according to their 'value' based on social status; a tube driver is of 'lower' status than a banker, fr'example. I've heard people make similarly prejudiced comments about plumbers, electricians and that. But no-one bats an eyelid at a barrister earning pots of money.
This is what I find unsettling about our society. That someone like a nurse or train driver is considered of 'lower value' than someone who works in banking or law etc. You cannot compare the jobs, and indeed nursing especially is far more demanding than sitting in a flippin office ffs.
But whenever tube staff do strike, the first thing that gets talked about in the media is invariable 'the cost to the economy'. So, surely these people are indeed very important in our society, and we are heavily reliant upon them in order to be able to get to work/earn money/pay bills etc.
So maybe people might wanna stop being so selfish, and look at the bigger picture.
An innertube costs less than a pound, trade. But a fiver retail.
Work it out.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yup, they were probably heading back into Manchester for their London connections...
Posted 7 months ago # -
I used to work for SWT as a student and the stories the guys there told me about going to pick up parts from within the tunnel etc (this particular tunnel was used as a short cut at night after pubs/bars were throwing out) were abit
Posted 7 months ago # -
Correct, there are people who have the unfortunate job of picking up bits, and obviously the trains need cleaning (underneath etc & driver's seat)...
Posted 7 months ago # -
cheburashka... if i was wearing a hat, i'd 'doff my hat to you'.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Rant rant rant rant rant. Here we go again, if you don't agree with me you are stupid or a Daily Mail stooge
lol, ting
Posted 7 months ago # -
Elfinsafety - Member
But whenever tube staff do strike, the first thing that gets talked about in the media is invariable 'the cost to the economy'. So, surely these people are indeed very important in our society, and we are heavily reliant upon them in order to be able to get to work/earn money/pay bills etc.
Quite a lot of "bingo" in this post.
Posted 7 months ago # -
i've just been out to my car to get a hat, and as promised, i doffed it.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Cheers. It wasn't an easy day and will unlikely be the last incident like that for me (about another 35 years left yet before I retire). The average driver probably has one every 5 years or so, unsurprisingly they're more common these days.
Back on topic though, most tube drivers are RMT (most main line drivers Aslef) - the RMT's B0b Crow can't resist the temptation of bringing chaos to London using so few pawns.
Posted 7 months ago # -
cheburashka - so nice to hear in such calm terms, what must have been and possibly still is a very serious incident for yourself.
Best wishes for the next 35 years, or more if cm has his way again.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Thanks. Plenty of drivers at work have had the same experiences sadly, but they were by far the best people to talk to about it. We are offered help through official channels and when returning to work have to be accompanied the first time we drive past the location involved. My other half is a qualified counsellor (and animal behaviourist!) so she could keep an eye on me, although I was pretty ok after the first couple of days - knowing you did all you could at the time helps a lot. We went for a bit of sun to Fuerte while I was off too. The other guys affected who turn up to the scene and those who have to clean the mess up don't tend to get anywhere near as much support as drivers do which is poor. The trains involved are taken out of service ASAP, sent to depots for tests/data-recorder downloads/cleaning/repair if necessary and ours go onto the underframe cleaning pit which washes any rogue bits out (usually fingers etc) which are then put in a biohazard bag and left for collection. Not so dignified.
Worst things post-incident were going to the GP and telling her in a matter-of-fact way I'd killed someone at work less than 36 hours ago and that I need a sicknote; the police coming round weeks later for a statement and then obviously the inquest months later, but the inquest gives you some closure. The family had passed a message through the police in my case early on saying they were sorry and concerned for my welfare which helped a huge amount. It's rare but some families can struggle to understand things at the inquest and they're given the opportunity to ask the driver questions on the record, that can be difficult (ie 'why didn't you stop'?). The coroners are usually well versed in these inquests though and don't make you answer daft questions.
The press are usually at the inquests and can be a right PITA - they'll often latch on to you if they get the chance and try to get you to say something, you have to keep your wits about you. The one I had this year ended up with my name in most of the national papers as it was deemed quite 'newsworthy' in some ways.
Posted 7 months ago #
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