Did we already talk about this?

Having had a bit of a read, it almost makes me want to vote leave…

I’d read some stuff on boingboing back when this was just getting started, and there was nothing good about it in the hints that were coming out then. The idea that any company or organisation can be sued into the ground by a US company just because they think their profits might be threatened, and the sodding EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent.

it almost makes me want to vote leave…

This might clinch it for you….
I do not take my mandate from the European people
It’s making me think about the way I’ll vote…but would we get a different/better deal on our own?

It’s not like the UK has much of a track record of deploying a backbone when dealing with the US either though, is it?

The only thing shocking about an unelected EU politician with executive powers saying “I do not take my mandate from the European people” is that some people should be surprised by the revelation.

One of the principle roles of the EU is to trample on democracy.

molgrips – Member

Having had a bit of a read, it almost makes me want to vote leave…

This isn’t an EU thing, this government’d be all over it regardless. It’s not just doing what the US wants, it’s what they’re into too.

The TTIP is a trade agreement between the European Union and the United States.

I don’t see what the issue is around TTIP and the EU commission. They know what’s best for us all.

Can’t believe there are people who are still unaware of TTIP, perhaps they’d prefer an NHS run by USA companies.

Well… the reason this is in the news is that the French are likely to block the whole thing. Our own government wouldn’t.

So I guess that it is kind of working… sort of…

I knew about TTIP btw but I wasn’t aware of the secrecy.

I don’t see what the issue is around TTIP and the EU commission.

Well one of the issues is that not everyone thinks the negotiations should be kept secret.

Although the unelected EU politician who claims “I do not take my mandate from the European people” thinks the negotiations aren’t secret enough :

EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström has said that no more reports on TTIP negotiations will be sent to Member States because of “important vulnerabilities in the last rounds of negotiations”.

Secret trade deal can only be read in secure ‘reading room’ in Brussels

EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent

The eu hasn’t signed yet.
Obama will be moving on in a short while, and as it’s one of his, it’s unlikely a successor will ratify it.
There’s a significant number of eu leaders who would also have to ratify it, quite a few of them face elections soon, and it only takes one to can it.

Apart from that, yeah, it’s all set to sail through.

Old news.

Last time I checked, Cameron was foaming at the mouth to get it passed through. Quelle surprise.

“EU is happily signing up to it is utterly abhorrent”

Apart from that, yeah, it’s all set to sail through.

To be fair to CountZero the rubber-stamp European Parliament has voted in favour of TTIP :

You won’t know this, but a very important TTIP vote happened in Europe this week

Quote :

The European Parliament voted by a majority of 436 to 241 to pass a resolution on the secret EU-US trade deal, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). By voting yes MEPs effectively gave their stamp of approval for the deal to go ahead, in spite of repeated and widespread protest from their own constituents. Protests which have repeatedly been ignored.

If however the point you’re making is that the EU Parliament, the one EU body which people actually vote for, is inconsequential, then yeah, I would go along with that.

Priority number one for the states to get the backward Euopeans 😉 on the same page! Oh and tax haven reform! Kinda de Sepp Blattering/Berlusconing Europe so they can get their straight shooters in!

Yeah I agree our little turd slurpers would be on it like a car bonnet “anything you say Mr President”

Ernie I was being a little sarcastic there. Cameron needs TTIP cause the commission and the USA want it, he actually has no idea what the full agreement contains. Large companies suing governments for loss of profits on governments policies that cost the companies profit, in secret by the way. Why do you think Obama was so keen to say we need to stay in the EU? It’s cause it insures that our government will back TTIP. The French will do what Germany wants and ignore the rules that don’t suit them.

Ernie I was being a little sarcastic there.

Yes thanks, I was aware. Although I think you might have missed me using the opportunity which your sarcastic comment provided to further focus on the secret nature of TTIP.

The secrecy surrounding TTIP is a damning indictment of the EU and its profoundly anti-democratic character.

ernie_lynch – Member

The TTIP is a trade agreement between the European Union and the United States.

And do we think that the UK would be left out of it all if we weren’t in the EU? Or would we just get our own little TTIP, possibly less nice since we’re so much smaller and famously obsessed with cozying up to the USA.

Those trade deals with the US people keep saying we’d make, if we left the EU. Aye.

I raised this on one of the Referendum threads, huge hostility to TTIP from French and Germans (obviously as soon as I raised it I was challenged by the usual suspects “source required” etc). Campaign groups like 38 Degrees have been trying to rally support to challenge it too.

@Del Hillary will ratify it certainly, Trump will try and get more

@Northwind we seem to have done ok without a trade deal with the US, I’m sure we’d manage if thats the way things went.

Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don’t join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.

As much as I don’t like many EU policies and practices, leaving will not be good for this country.

Obama says we’ll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave. He said that I did not make it up. Now I’m not fully sure wether it’s in or leave but on thing I do know trade deals are over rated. We (UK and EU) manage now without one for many countries but then I digress in facts, speak as an exporting company of manufactured goods. How do we deal with the USA now? What does the world trade organisation do? I’d also just mention that the USA is one of the worst offenders in the developed (what does that really mean) of trade barriers and protectionist activities.

TTIP is pretty bad, even some in the USA are un happy with it, if we stay in the EU we are getting it. Your NHS will be one of he main targets. As all things done behind closed doors and labelled secret, there is something to hide. Major companies are clamouring to get this through, it’ll put companies that are big enough above governments and democracy (not matter how flawed). Have a look on the 38degrees website about TTIP.

Am not going to discuss this anymore as we are all doooooooooooomed, seriously.

The TTIP is probably 80% of why I currently think “leave” is the best option.

Obama says we’ll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave.

Exactly this. If this is the case, then chances are there’ll be one or two changes of government party in the intervening years and in those years we’ll have had plenty of time to see how it’s panned out for the rest of Europe; I don’t think it will have panned out well, at least not for the general public. If it isn’t the case then the “remain” campaign are caught propagating a blatant lie which puts them on wobbly ground when it comes to believing anything else they claim.

For just one example, look at how Philip Morris has been with Australia over its tobacco “plain packaging” law. They first launched a case against the Aussie government from within Australia. At the same time they launched a case from their Hong Kong HQ so it could do the same under one of these secret arbitration courts provided by an Investor State Dispute Settlement instrument available under the “1993 Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of Hong Kong for the Promotion and Protection of Investments (Treaty)”. I understand that these arbitration courts will have likely originally been in place as a way to protect a company’s investments against errant national governments, but it has already been seen that if their use can be subverted then it will be. See also Philip Morris’ similar actions against Uruguay and Norway, and others here.

If you don’t think the same will happen to EU member governments under the same ISDSs provided for by the TIPP then I’d be interested to hear why not.

Here’s what the lizards are up to, agree if it were the UK alone we would have signed up long ago.

This short introduction gives you the main arguments why TTIP and CETA are a threat to so many things we value and need – in less than five minutes. So let’s begin:
The EU soon intends to sign two far-reaching trade agreements: One with Canada (CETA = Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement) and one with the USA (TTIP = Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership). The official line is that these will create jobs and increase economic growth. However, rather than citizens, it’s much more likely that only big corporations will benefit from them. Here are the main reasons why:

Investors will be able to sue states. The so-called Investor-State-Dispute-Settlement (ISDS) – even in it’s new disguise as the EU’s “Investment Court System” (ICS) model – will grant foreign investors (i.e. Canadian and US companies) the right to sue European states if they believe that laws or measures of the EU or any member state have damaged their investments and reduced their expected profit. This will also affect laws and measures enacted in the interest of the common good, such as environmental and consumer protection.
Corporations will be invited to co-write new laws. The so-called “regulatory cooperation” will allow representatives of big business and bureaucrats from both sides of the Atlantic to influence draft laws in expert groups even before these are discussed in elected parliaments. This undermines democracy!
Big business has excessive influence on the secret negotiations for CETA and TTIP. In 92% of all stakeholder meetings the EU Commission held in the preparatory phase for TTIP, only representatives of companies were heard. Only in very few cases consumer and trade union representatives were invited to share their views. Corporate influence persists during the negotiations: Even some wordings in draft texts leaked to the public originate directly from corporate lobbyists.
The negotiations are conducted in secret. Our public representatives know little about their progress, and the general public is not allowed to see any of the official agreement’s texts until the negotiations are finished. Parliamentarians are only allowed to read these long legal texts (the CETA agreement, for example, has about 1,500 pages) in especially designated reading rooms without expert help, and are not allowed to tell the public what they have read. Once the negotiations are finished, they can only accept or reject the agreements, without being able to ask for changes.
Food quality standards and consumer protection could be weakened. Through the alignment of regulations, for which TTIP aims, European standards are endangered, as the US standards are often substantially weaker. Also, the US side wants the EU to accept its approach to risk assessment, which would allow every product to be sold until the state was able to prove it to be harmful. So far, in Europe companies must prove the harmlessness of their products before bringing them on the market.
Workers’ rights and jobs are endangered. The USA still refuse to recognise basic rights for employees (it has only ratified two out of the eight ILO core labour standards), and the “race to the bottom” triggered by TTIP could become a danger for employee rights in the EU as well. Also, tougher competition from abroad could lead to massive job losses. A study published by Tufts University (USA) found that 600,000 jobs could be lost due to TTIP.
European countries would be falling under pressure to allow high-risk technologies such as fracking or GM technology. As part of TTIP and/or CETA, companies could be allowed to take governments to arbitrators if they regulate or ban high-risk technologies. In 2013, the oil and gas company Lone Pine filed a $250-million ISDS lawsuit against Canada, after the state of Quebec issued a moratorium on fracking. TTIP and CETA will pave the way for an ever increasing number of such lawsuits.
CETA and TTIP will further increase inequalities. Those already well off will profit most from CETA and TTIP. Big business will gain even more advantages over small and medium enterprises and citizens. The EU’s economic crisis is likely to deepen further, as the most competitive member states are expected to pocket most of the potential GDP increase. Countries on the EU’s periphery, that are already highly dependent on foreign capital, risk losing out on quality jobs and sustainable investment. On a global scale, inequality between developed and developing countries will increase further, with studies forecasting dramatic GDP drops and job losses in third countries.
Liberalisation and privatisation will become one-way streets. CETA and TTIP will make it more difficult – and probably even impossible – to return public utilities, hospitals, or waste collection to the public sector once they have been privatised.
CETA and TTIP want to increase the power of multinationals at the expense of democracy and the general good. We must not allow this to happen! Please support our European Initiative!

I don’t get it, what’s in it for the EU? Why are they (and the UK by all accounts) so desperate to sign up?

cheap bike parts, innit

Trade deals are driven by corperations, their lobbyists and shareholders who want aligned regulations so you can sell cars/ food/energy/bits and bobs etc made for the American market in the European market.

Its about a bigger market to sell into, arguably not a bad thing unless of course you allow the companies to write the regulations that should be there to protect people and worse still allow them to stop goverments putting new regulations ( say air quality standards) in place without compensating business who make money out of polluting the air.

Even in Luxembourg, essentially the creator of the EU concept, there’s massive pushback from everyone, even those in parties traditionally supportive of the EU and all it brings.

One thing I’d never even imagined was the concept of “investor courts”

The newspaper focussed on a controversial TTIP proposal to set up private investor courts that would allow multinational companies to sue governments if they deem public policy to hinder fair competition.

Mental. Utterly mental. Although the EU says it’s off the table, the Americans have rejected that and it’s not been revisited.

Even in Luxembourg, essentially the creator of the EU concept, there’s massive pushback from everyone, even those in parties traditionally supportive of the EU and all it brings.

I get the impression that TTIP is so unpopular that any government that tries to ratify it will be committing electoral suicide.

Except ours, of course.

Obama says we’ll be at the back of the queue if we leave the EU and it could take up to 10 years to get a trade deal so why worry if we leave.

Because if we’re faced with the choice of waiting 10 years for a decent trade deal, or an immediate deal that is the international trade version of sharing a prison cell with Mike Tyson, then we (by which I actually mean the ruling oligarchy) will snap up the latter.

How depressing is that – to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse 🙁

Reasons why I’m voting in
#1
The ttip has to be ratified by each member state of the EU.
#2
France won’t ratify it.
#3
The UK would if it were on its own

How depressing is that – to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse

Sums up the EU debate quite nicely.

if we stay in the EU we are getting it

It looks like the opposite, actually – it’s the rest of the EU that could save us from Cameron and his scumbags. How’s that feel?

@ocrider – I don’t think the Germans are all that keen either.

Would anyone sane be keen?

ratherbeintobago – Member

@ocrider – I don’t think the Germans are all that keen either

#4…

🙂

This must be the kind of thing that unaccountable bollox like the Bilderberg group rustle together behind closed doors, before scuttling away like vermin when the doors are opened.

How depressing is that – to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse

I don’t fully understand the all the in’s and out of TTIP, and it’s implications, but was reading over weekend that a number of other EU countries have inserted ‘opt outs’ to exempt their health services and other strategic industries from some of the consequences of the TTIP.
Our [UK] wonderful government hasn’t included the NHS in the ‘opt outs’. 😥
The article contrasted this with the Cyprus government exempting their hairdressers from the agreement. 🙂
Cyprus cares more about hairdressers than Tories do about NHS

Why are they (and the UK by all accounts) so desperate to sign up?

From what I’ve read it’s big petrol based corporations (e.g. car manufacturers) that are keen on TTIP
whilst agricultural corporations & groups are not keen on it.

The advantage of the EU is that given the numbers needed to ratify it, in the leaked form that is unlikely.
As others have said our current gov’t would already have shafted us by signing it and some unelected gov’t official would have had the same attitude to democracy.

I saw this article about TTIP yesterday. It covers the usual ground (which is pretty awful stuff) but it also has this paragraph:

They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens. Representatives for each side appear to have found that they have run into “irreconcilable” differences that could undermine the signing of the landmark and highly controversial trade deal, campaigners say.

So while the current text of the TTIP is horrible and negotiating it in secret seems to be a terrible decision, if the two parties have “irreconcilable” differences about what should go in it, was there always a good chance that the horror stories were never going to make it into the finished treaty?

Hopefully as the light of public scrutiny is increasingly brought to bear the pressure on the EU negotiators to deliver something acceptable to the EU populace will increase further. Or it’ll get added to the pile of stalled and abandoned free trade deals that is already pretty large and transatlantic trade will muddle along much as it has been for another few decades.

I’m still inclined to believe though that a UK government negotiating alone would just bend over and accept whatever the US first offered to it.

#3
The UK would if it were on its own

That’s over 10 years away according to POTUS. The tories might get another term (if Corbyn is still in post) but I very much doubt they’d get another after that, giving Labour the chance they need to chuck it in the bin.
That’s the beauty of swing voters, no party gets too long (usually) to **** things up too much (so far that they can’t be changed back anyhow). Unfortunately the EU doesn’t work like this as it has no competition, nothing to worry about and nobody to answer to.