I agree, a good thread to have, thanks Yunki, and on the whole a reasoned one, apart from the irony of the threats from the ‘chest beaters’– and DONK is right to identify the need for widening and making the whole thing inclusive rather than exclusive .

Andyruss at first I too thought that comment was a bit inappropriate but as several subsequent posters proved it to be accurate, I guess it’s pertinent.

Nice to see the Irish Taoiseach in Enniskillen today paying his respects, very poignant.

Rudebwoy it was others who identified the widening scope stuff, I was just summarising the thread as I read it. I as ever am not sure 100% exactly how I feel on the subject, observed the silence when it was pointed out what time it was (over the PA at swimming pool) but forgot to get a poppy again.

Was enjoying the discussion tho.

Just a thought:

I’m sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

ok –good summary !

like most on here, am not comfortable with the present scenario,which increasingly seems to be about those who serve in the forces, and not the wider perspective of human empathy

I’m sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

As I said, to me the fact that Remembrance Day is officially just about commemorating the military dead, on our side only, is inherently valuing the lives of some people more than others. It’s difficult to see that as anything other than nationalistic, IMO.

The atmosphere of enforced patriotism is pretty worrying. Seems like these attitudes are more likely to encourage future conflict than guard against it.

Rudeboy…. I’m entirely comfortable with the present scenario and you are in the minority I reckon IMO

seem to be getting in a discussion with donk. Anyway why l observe the silence. I served on the front line in the first gulf war .l did not wish to be there but it was my job. 3 members of my unit lost their lives along with thousands of others. I went through every emotion you could think of but the over ridding one’s were fear ,pity and joy you will never understand when it was over. I never talk about it to my family and my son never ask’s me questions about it. When we were dealing with enemy pow’s we showed compassion and respect giving them our own rations of food and water. Actions of a trained killer ? My opinion of war is that it is wrong at every level and l never again wish to see,smell relive that part of my life. However the people l served with will always be dear to my heart. When you have been through that then you can question why l chose to honour them in my own little way . No songs no flag waving just one minute out of my year mindless killing machine or no. Today it was a minutes reflection prior to our group ride

Just a thought:

I’m sure that many people, like me, believe that honouring and remembering those that have lost their lives in war, does not necessarily mean that you approve of or agree with the governments that sent them there in the first place. Surely they are two totally separate issues?

This. Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil should not let that detract from the fact that remembrance day is about remembering those who, past and present, sacrifice their safety to protect us.

There is a feeling in the internet world we live in of cuddly safety, we’re detached from lots of real issues these days and it’s easy for those of you who do, to sit at home in your chair, in the warm to say that all wars are bad. But there are millions upon millions of people out there who would scream to you that it is often a necessary cost to do right. The pen is mightier than the sword until the swordsman pulls his sword on the writer. Those of you who attack the army and everything they stand for, are hypocrites of the highest order because you will hate them until YOU need them.

Patriotism is something we should value, and we should respect our troops in any way possible.

Donk referring to servicemen/women as trained killers on today of all days is not belittling them then

What are we training them to do then ?
I cannot see how you can argue that we dont train the armed forces to kill.

Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil should not let that detract from the fact that remembrance day is about remembering those who, past and present, sacrifice their safety to protect us.

No they dont I am not asking them to do anything and I would be just as free if they stopped the expanionist wars.

There is a feeling in the internet world we live in of cuddly safety, we’re detached from lots of real issues these days and it’s easy for those of you who do, to sit at home in your chair, in the warm to say that all wars are bad.

Your right it is my detachment from reality that makes me think war is bad. 😕 Perhaps if I went to the theatre i would see how good it is? When I visited WW1 sites and all the thousands of graveyards it was hard to think anything else

But there are millions upon millions of people out there who would scream to you that it is often a necessary cost to do right.

Which is their right but asking me to honour them for this is a bit much.

The pen is mightier than the sword until the swordsman pulls his sword on the writer. Those of you who attack the army and everything they stand for, are hypocrites of the highest level because you will hate them until YOU need them.

If i needed them I would be fighting with them but thanks for the abuse 🙄
We were last invaded in 1066 FWIW

Patriotism is something we should value,

It is absolutely not and you end up fighting and killing other soldiers who feel exactly the same way about their country whether right or wrong.

and we should respect our troops in any way possible.

Yes they can do no wrong thanks for Bloody Sunday = other examples exist and I am niether catholic nor Irish
For clarity I am not suggesting everything the armed services do is bad or wrong just that they can make mistakes and can often be sent into wars the people they serve dont want

However the people l served with will always be dear to my heart. When you have been through that then you can question why l chose to honour them in my own little way . No songs no flag waving just one minute out of my year mindless killing machine or no. Today it was a minutes reflection prior to our group ride

Interesting post. The trouble is though, I don’t really see why I should care more about your mates that died than I do about the (countless more) Iraqi soldiers/civilians that did too. Ie I have the same level of ordinary human compassion that most people have for those they don’t know.

i have two good friends, both ex welsh guards, they express very similar sentiments to you andyruss, they are both struggling with ptsd, and they both declined to take part in the official ceremony in town today….

Bloodynora, glad you feel good about things, but many more do not…

Grum l am not asking anything of you . War is wrong war is evil ,no one wins in the end. I was pointing out it is a personal thing to me and that is why l remember the the saddest time in my live.l think you will find a said thousands lost their lives

I think we probably all remember today what I remember is what waste of human life it is on all sides.

I reckon “we’ve” probably killed more innocent people than we’ve lost doing it.

Patriotism is something we should value

No.
Patriotism is tribalism writ large.

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
Bertrand Russell

It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind.
Voltaire

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
George Bernard Shaw

I’ve no negative views about Remembrance Day; I observe it in my way, for those people I know who are no longer here and who served. I am under no illusions as to the futility of much of the sacrifice, but I would respect that sacrifice anyway.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

Or adding to the other side of an internet persona balance…

For those that care to find it, there’s a Canadian website that shows just how evil war can be.

No way in hell I am either linking it or even giving hints, truly horrifying.

Interesting thread this, I seem to find myself agreeing with different sides on different things.

Or adding to the other side of an internet persona balance…

Indeedy… 😉

I have however just agreed with what Crikey just said.

Edit, 2nd from last post

I used to hold the same view as the OP but that was when I was 15 and incredibly naive.

It’s a childish an immature argument.

No they dont I am not asking them to do anything and I would be just as free if they stopped the expanionist wars.

Then bugger off to somalia and see how life is for you there? If you deplore the actions of our Army so intensely, why are you happy to live, work and profit from the safety that it provides our country? We may not have been invaded in a long time, but if the army didn’t exist, we would be fish food… you know that right?

And of course i’m not saying that every conflict is justifiable, successful or right. But it is a means to an end in many situations. You are a fantasist. Willing problems to vanish does nothing.

To claim that patriotism is a just cause is simple rabble rousing.

I value your opinion, and so does our army. Because without it you probably wouldn’t be allowed an opinion. How can you deny that? Have you ever defended the right to an opinion of others? no.

And don’t put words in my mouth, I never said patriotism is a just cause, I said it should be valued. Not above all else, but valued none the less. You could argue that it should be a worldwide respect for decent values and not ‘patriotism’ and I would agree with that. But that’s a long way off.

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

Human Nature, sadly defines that an easy way to get more is to kill then steal it from your neighbour, it’s been a fact since creation.

As to our not being invaded, that is thanks to the various armed forces that have stood on the wall and prevented that from happening, many died doing it.

They don’t even ask to be remembered, there are however a few of us who have families that were among them, so we like to do it.

We like to do it without the benefit of young lefty pinko’s who are able to be that way because of the liberty they enjoy at the sacrifice of others talking bollox about the wrongs of war. Aggression exists, society is formed to protect itself from outside aggression and hires the services of people braver than ourselves to do it, so when they pay the ultimate price and particularly on a day such as this they deserve respect.

3yrs ago I cried at Tyne Cot.

Men and women join to serve but not to waste their lives.

Afghanistan is far worse than Vietnam. It will NEVER be normal there.

Stop wasting the quality of their lives for politicians folly.

Listen to the Russians FFS

I used to hold the same view as the OP but that was when I was 15 and incredibly naive.

what exactly do you think my view is..?

here is my original post in full for you to read again

As a mark of respect for those that wish to err, show their respect on the other thread, I thought that I would start a separate thread for the inevitable debate..

I’m personally not at all comfortable with the vehement nationalistic jingoism..

The comments about the Iranian geezer on the other thread being a prime example of how the arguments that defend the remembrance ceremony are completely undermined in the name of patriotism..

Shouldn’t we be trying with all of our might to push the perception and meaning of the day into a more logical and useful direction..?
Can this ever be achieved or is that dimwitted brand of patriotism too deeply ingrained into our society..?

What happened to the white poppy campaign..?

My thoughts are with the families around the world that have been torn apart by warmongering governments

I was angry at another forum users posts on the remembrance day thread, and started this one so that any debate could be held here instead leaving respects to be paid on the other..

My only view, which I am guessing I did not make clearly enough for you, is that the occasion seems to have a tendency towards getting it’s message muddied..

What part of that is immature, incredibly naive or indeed even an argument…!?

I guess it depends on whether you’re reading it as an impassioned rhetoric, or just a couple of questions to get a debate going..

no-one seems very interested in answering those questions it seems, preferring instead to get all arsey and disrespectful of one another..

bump glitch

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

“Junkboy”…oh how I tittered.

And, if I’m honest, your subsequent tub thumping jingoistic bullshit is kinda turning me on a bit. Who’d a thunk it eh?

Is patriotism a dirty word now? You say patriotism and all of a sudden you’re some jingoistic, pro colonial crusty old Tory smoking cigars with a monocle in one eye whilst throwing darts at a world map and deciding where to invade next?

Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?

I didn’t really expect anything less of a thread of this title in terms of grounding or intellect though.

Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?

Unless he’s from a different country, of course.
Then you can do what ever you want to, cos he’s foreign.

Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
George Jean Nathan

‘tub thumping jingoistic bullshit’ Oh how I tittered 🙂

Junkyard – Member
I think we probably all remember today what I remember is what waste of human life it is on all sides.

How true.

igrf – Member
Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

(Sorry but with respect) How untrue – we become poor educators if we fail to teach the huge folly and waste of life that wars are. We should be very careful of sanitising war and the horror it involves. * Standing at Thiepval Memorials etc is a dramatic reminder of this.

Of course, this is is no way incompatible with:

They don’t even ask to be remembered, there are however a few of us who have families that were among them, so we like to do it.

In remembrance, we can give thanks, honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and still warn future generations that armed conflict should be avoided as much as possible by recognising its true horror.

*edit: Many years ago at school, a fellow pupil asked to read out several war poems before our school service to remind us of this. It was the most memorable and meaningful service that I ever attended at school.

Rememberance day is a personal day for me to remember friends and colleagues. I’m beginning to despise those who have started to use the period of rememberance for either political point scoring or some other agenda. Whether its wearing a white poppy, applauding through the silence or hollow nationalistic muppets who don’t know even know where their local memorial is. If you don’t wear a poppy or attend a service I honestly dont mind! It’s your freedom of choice, however of you disrespect me or the majority of the population that do, you have no moral argument.

Oh and deadly Darcy, as for your “trained killers” comment. Yes we do get sensitive around this time. Especially to idiotic comments by pre-pubescent children who hide behind their keyboards.

patriotism is a close relative of nationalism, both are used to divide and rule.

As an internationalist i wish to see solidarity with my fellow humans, those who do not exploit others, those who do not kill others, and those who wish to live in a world where people are put before profit.

a lot to ask, but you have to have ideals…..

Junkboy if ever a post defined you as inappropriate to teach the young that last one did it.

Folk disagree there is no need to just start hurling abuse, it wont persuade anyone to change their view and is a bit childish].

See me after class and we can chat about respect and how it is a two way street
😉

You got a new log on after the ban will you be able to control yourself this time?

Can patriotism not mean that in a time of need you stand beside your neighbor, no matter what race creed or ethnicity he/she is and be proud that you stand for and value the same human principles and rights?

Well apparently in the dictionary it does not mean that

I didn’t really expect anything less of a thread of this title in terms of grounding or intellect though.

I cant even be arsed taking the piss over that

Personally I’d like to believe that Remembrance day was about sparing a thought for all sides involved in conflict. This is what it means for me, but quite definitively it is officially for our armed forces. I will wear a poppy but be thinking of my German and Polish relatives too…

J

You got a new log on after the ban will you be able to control yourself this time?

This log on is actually me, or the closest I can get to being me without expressing myself the way I would like to but would be banned by folk like you, abusing as is so often the case by the left, the basic right of expression gifted to us by those we would remember.

The fact that you consider criticism as abuse exactly defines you and your kind.

Yes we do get sensitive around this time.

Yes, by the subsequent ad hominems, I can see you’re a bit sensitive.

In remembrance, we can give thanks, honour those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and still warn future generations that armed conflict should be avoided as much as possible by recognising its true horror.

But it isn’t happening. Despite the “warnings” and all the memorials, we are still sending soldiers overseas to what they now call “defending our interests” which are mainly economic these days.

We had to defend our freedom during WW2 mainly through the consequences of the political decisions taken after WW1, but at the same time we also have to see that the appeasement that occurred during this time didn’t work either, leading to conflict. When to fight?

Politics were involved whether its was reparations or appeasement. This should be a delicate balancing act as to whether you enter into conflict or not and, I feel that Politicians are almost too eager to go for the former and not for the right reasons. Of course the reasons depend on your own point of view.

When I look at the cenotaph, I see continuous failure to heed historical lessons, The one day where the politicians have to show a solemnity and slight remorse for the actions either they or their predecessors carried out. They lay their wreaths and tomorrow it’ll be business as usual with the same rhetoric as before.

Andyruss I sympathise with anyone who loses people close to them. Rememberence day seems to be about remembering your comrades but ignoring your opponents and their fellow civilian countrymen. Surely all the casualties of war should be remembered if we’re going to avoid repeating mistakes?

Those of you who believe that all wars post ww2 are abhorrently evil

dont think anyone called them all evil, it was merely pointed out since ww2 we haven’t been defending our own liberty but other people’s (whether they liked it or not)

As all the quotes have suggested patriotism is blindly following the country’s leaders/media without question, surely not something we should adhere to nowadays.