If an industry is dependent upon subsidy, I struggle to see how it can be described as flourishing.

Farming as mentioned on a previous post takes more in subsidy as income than actually selling stuff.

Not just Scotland.

FADN data highlights dependence of EU farms on subsidy payments

Being that renewables are dependent upon newer, less well developed technology, it is reasonable to assume that for now subsidies (probably greater than those for conventional power) will be required to achieve the development and encourage the private investment required. It may then flourish and provide an income stream to the country in the future.

Yep, someone understands at least. Subsidies are an incentive to provide investment in developing technologies, which are always more expensive to implement at the start. The UK has a good track record of abandoning developing technology for other countries to then pick it up and make it very profitable. Just yesterday what I think is the last UK wave power company closed down due to lack of investment http://renews.biz/100597/lack-of-buyer-sinks-aquamarine . UK did the same with wind power many decades ago and now it is a huge export industry for other countries like Germany and Denmark.

Still, renewables are considerably cheaper than the new UK nuclear developments which would be the world’s most expensive power.

Subsidies are an incentive to provide investment in developing technologies

I don’t disagree, but subsidies have been withdrawn from solar and onshore wind because they should be able to stand on their own two feet now and indeed are. If you look at the cost Denmark and Germany have paid for their position, it is huge – subsidies in Germany are EU20 billion a year.

Probably the same people benefiting from the farming and wind turbine subsidies!

Probably the same people benefiting from the farming and wind turbine subsidies!

Not offshore, which is where you would be looking if you are talking about an energy industry that can provide one of the foundations of a nation’s economy. Many farmers will either lease land to developers or operate small wind farms though but insignificant in the bigger picture.

Hang on, I’ll see if I can find Alex’s Nicola’s phone number for you.

The thing is, oil revenue was fundamental to the post independence economic model touted by YS. It’s the only way in which Scotland contributed a higher proportion of taxes than it received in government spending – a position which has now reversed with the current oil price. You can’t dismiss it as a bonus.

jambalaya – Member

I see the SNP are embroiled in a financial scandal as one their MPs has been reported to the police for allegedly misappropriating donations. Very “establishment” eh ?

Posted 14 hours ago #

Still, a bit to go before they are bullying party members into suicide and trying to convince activists to sleep with MP’s, or did you miss all that?

The thing is, oil revenue was fundamental to the post independence economic model touted by YS. It’s the only way in which Scotland contributed a higher proportion of taxes than it received in government spending – a position which has now reversed with the current oil price. You can’t dismiss it as a bonus.

spot on

Still, a bit to go before they are bullying party members into suicide and trying to convince activists to sleep with MP’s, or did you miss all that?

shafting an entire nation due to a pack of lies and misinformation to achieve their politcal end goal must run it close (The SNP aren’t unique in this aspect I must admit!)

Don’t forget the ends always justified the means….

lemonysam – Member
Free Yorkshire
Yeah, good luck trying to get them to pay for it.

That’s point lad “FREE Yorkshire” we’d not ave t pay frout! We’d be free o you lot n’all.

Don’t forget the ends always justified the means….

Yes but who’s ends are they and where have they been.

mikewsmith – Member
So epicyclo, is that 37% thinking it’s the biggest issue because it is or isn’t happening…

I’ve no idea. I posted the graph as information.

ninfan – Member
Democracy can be a right bitch can’t it?

Nah, it’s wonderful. That’s how we will get our independence shortly. Without one bullet being fired.
Hopefully.

If only we had tucked some of that oil money away in the mattress for a rainy day.Oh well,nobody would have had that much insight.

Oh,wait! Somebody did.

Nah, it’s wonderful. That’s how we will get our independence shortly. Without one bullet being fired.
Hopefully.

This is the thing that really gets on my tits about yes voters. It appears to me the hope is that they’ll continue holding these referendums every 5/10/15 years until they finally win one. Then no matter how small the majority they’ll claim ‘Scotland has had its say and want to be independent’, and that’ll be that….

Totally ignoring the fact that those who have changed their mind since last year are jsut as likely to change their mind again in the future when (if) it turns out it wasn’t such a good idea afterall

do we then get a rerun and to vote on rejoining the union?

Of course we don’t…

@Daffy Which powers again? The climate change levy on high energy users is a reserved matter under the department of energy and climate change. The budgetary controls are overwhelmingly in George Osbornes hands.

Don’t you need to wait for next generation?

Yes Norway population 5M vs UK of 64M not very comparable. And oil was found when it was the UK and not an independent Scotland.

This is the thing that really gets on my tits about yes voters. It appears to me the hope is that they’ll continue holding these referendums every 5/10/15 years until they finally win one

Yup. If the union is so great, why don’t we have a referendum every 5 years or so? Could just add another question to the general election ballot papers, would be easy to do.

Of the people I know who voted No, some are already feeling like they were tricked, and some are waiting to see how the EU referendum goes. I don’t know any who were massively enthusiastic about the union, they were just unsure about independence.

Yup. If the union is so great, why don’t we have a referendum every 5 years or so? Could just add another question to the general election ballot papers, would be easy to do.

For the exact reason I stated..because once you’ve voted yes then there aint no going back. It should be a once in a generation thing..as ironically we were promised beforehand by the SNP

Of the people I know who voted No, some are already feeling like they were tricked,

Slightly ironic given the link in the OP don’t you think?

Yup. If the union is so great, why don’t we have a referendum every 5 years or so?

If it were up to me, there would be one every year until they got the right answer. I’d entitle it; union or no union, and scotland leaving would signal an end to the entire thing. Independence for all!

Slightly ironic given the link in the OP don’t you think?

Not really. Alex Bell had a falling out with the SNP a couple of years ago. Now he’s launching a new website, so conveniently gets a lot of media coverage.

It’s all a bit weird to make so much fuss over the opinions of one person, not backed up by any particular evidence, only because he used to be a hiheidyin in the SNP.

tpbiker – Member
…Totally ignoring the fact that those who have changed their mind since last year are jsut as likely to change their mind again in the future when (if) it turns out it wasn’t such a good idea afterall

Democracy is a wonderful thing, isn’t it? 🙂

On that logic there’s no need to run another General Election.

aracer – Member
epicyclo » That’s how we will get our independence shortly.
Don’t you need to wait for next generation?

Only if we do what we are told by SNP politicians.

The independence movement is bigger than the SNP.

On that logic there’s no need to run another General Election.

its completely different…I don’t see why this is hard to understand. A comparison would be for us to run a GE every 5 years until Labour finally got into power, then to never hold one again.

Which isn’t really democracy at all is it?

So we should never hold referendums on anything that’s not reversible?

Great. Done that. Can we stop now?

You got the wrong answer aracer. Is 2016 for the big YES ok?

Well clearly that’s a matter of opinion, and on that matter I appear to be with the majority 😉

Not really. Alex Bell had a falling out with the SNP a couple of years ago. Now he’s launching a new website, so conveniently gets a lot of media coverage.

It’s all a bit weird to make so much fuss over the opinions of one person, not backed up by any particular evidence, only because he used to be a hiheidyin in the SNP.

More ad homs – he seems to have at least as much evidence as you do, probably quite a bit more I’d imagine.

He claimed it is “morally dubious” of the SNP for “posing as the defender of the poor against Tories” when its “ill-prepared version of independence does not plausibly offer any real alternative”.

He added: “The fact is a gap exists – Scotland does not earn enough to pay for its current level of spending. Once you accept that, you acknowledge that the SNP’s model is broken.

“That model, as expressed in the White Paper and numerous speeches, is that it was possible to move from the UK to an independent Scotland and keep services at the same level, without either borrowing a lot more or raising taxes. It isn’t.”

I’ve still not heard anyone actually address the claims he is making – given that he was one of the architects of the independence white paper it’s pretty devastating that he is saying this. But people just keep going ‘la la la I’m not listening, he must be wrong or maliciously motivated because it doesn’t fit with my beliefs’

I’m still actually pretty on the fence on independence and would strongly consider moving there if there was a Yes vote but just ignoring stuff like this because it doesn’t fit your beliefs/prejudices is not constructive or convincing. People are really not applying critical/logical thinking to this at all.

AHA but maybe you won’t be next year! 😉

So we should never hold referendums on anything that’s not reversible?

um no…where did I say that? We held a referendum only last year. I had no issues with it then whatsoever. It was positioned as a once in a generation thing.

What I said is that issues like this that are not reversible should not be held regularly until one side gets the decision they want. Which appears to be what the Yes contingent want.

Answer honestly – if it had been a yes vote and prior to seperation in 2016 the no contingent had asked for another referendum ‘just to be sure’…what would you have said?

Page four.

GRAPHS! Now!

Answer honestly – if it had been a yes vote and prior to seperation in 2016 the no contingent had asked for another referendum ‘just to be sure’…what would you have said?

Good luck getting a straight/honest answer to that.

I would ask for thoughts on these from Yes supporters but I know that all I’ll get is ‘colonial masters, biased press, don’t want to hear it’ etc etc

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2015/09/03/the-snp-s-record-in-government-has-escaped-scrutiny-for-too

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32c37d04-4caf-11e5-9b5d-89a026fda5c9.html#axzz3sQceI4zB

Answer honestly – if it had been a yes vote and prior to seperation in 2016 the no contingent had asked for another referendum ‘just to be sure’…what would you have said?

I’d have said “if you want to run a referendum to rejoin the UK, go right ahead”.

Those articles – looked at the first one, saw it was David Torrance, bravely read on, saw he was complaining that the SNP wasn’t getting enough critical press, then fell off my chair laughing and dropped my Crunchie.

You owe me a new Crunchie.

Here’s an honest answer to that ^^^ I would not be satisfied with a winning margin of 55-45.In that case I would not expect the unionist voters to give up and I would attempt to compromise with them in an effort to reach a consensus. What I would not do would be endlessly repeating “You Lost get over it ” any time a person associated with the Yes campaign speaks out on any social political or economic issue,yet that seems to be the refrain for a per centage of the unionist vote.

Those articles – looked at the first one, saw it was David Torrance, bravely read on, saw he was complaining that the SNP wasn’t getting enough critical press, then fell off my chair laughing and dropped my Crunchie.

You owe me a new Crunchie.

Ah it’s yet another ad hom and complete failure to address any of the points raised. What a massive surprise.

If he’s an idiot making specious arguments – can you explain why they are specious, perhaps with some sort of evidence?

Seems pretty balanced to me, and the last paragraph chimes well with the evidence of this thread and many of the Yes supporters I know. Some people simply don’t want to hear any criticism of the SNP or independence.

None of this means that the SNP in government has been a disaster, far from it – it’s reputation for competence (which was key to its 2011 election victory) is generally well deserved and any cock-ups have been small beer. But at the same time it hasn’t been transformative, and nowhere near as radical, bold and ambitious as the always-slick presentation dictates. It’s probably more accurate to say that since 2007 the Scottish government has been no better or no worse than its Labour/Lib Dem predecessors.

And what has been really lacking is proper scrutiny of the sort applied to the UK government on a daily basis. Before the creation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 there was much talk of a ‘democratic deficit’ in Scotland. Now there’s an accountability deficit, and it’s one from which the SNP continues to benefit.

Change the record – time to focus on the SNP’s record in office

All this historical stuff, lets the SNP get away with murder a second time

Needed at least 80% of the country to be behind it. 55-45 the other way would have ended up with civil unrest in my view.

Anyway, as we are talking economic models – would one of the know-it-all economists on here who are roundly ridiculing the SNP’s plans for independence care to post up the statistics of the UK national debt?

Discuss (ad nauseum)

Here’s a dynamic map to add to the mix of graphs and tables. Just posting it as renewables was mentioned earlier in case anyone is interested, not massively relevant to the original topic. 8.1% of UK electricity generation being generated from offshore wind as I type, sadly almost none of it from Scottish waters, which maybe does have relevance to the original topic.

http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/energy-and-infrastructure/offshore-wind-energy/offshore-wind-electricity-map