crossroads is one where both UK and Germany ignore Dutch experimentation.

ie make a cycle lane strip go straight ahead with different colour tarmac, and make cars have to cross the cycle lane for the left turn lane (right in Germany). Dutch did it, changed their mind, and updated their specs. UK can only afford paint, so follow obsolete Dutch spec.

Well this is the problem with the dutch Lane in NW1. Someone sold Camden council the myth of “dutch” cycle lanes meaning “soft” infrastructure. When you do some digging you actually find its been installed because its 1/10th the cost of the older solid concrete segregation strip that previously sat there…

DFT guidelines are pretty clear on many aspects of cyclepaths, I believe the design speed is 20mph.

You got a reference for that? The DfT has previously issued guidance saying that if you’re travelling at over 18mph you should probably be on the road, not a cycle path, but I’ve never heard a design speed suggested, and this certainly seems to be reflected in most designs.

something the dutch played with, decided didn’t work and moved on from.

[quote]crossroads is one where both UK and Germany ignore Dutch experimentation.[/quote]Didn’t TfL/whoever do a load of infrastructure pilots (on an old runway somewhere I think) but they did pilots of all the old stuff the netherlands had already tried and dismissed. Why say your trying “dutch style” and then ignore their tests/progress?

Fair enough Donk, sounds like they really do have it sorted and they are that good.

But! I bet we don’t end up with any infrastructure which is even close to that in Holland, even though it’ll get labelled as “Dutch” even though the designer has never left this country or ridden a bike. Much like the new “dutch style junction” in Southampton which is apparently (I’ve not seen it myself other than the press coverage, road.cc etc) awful and nothing like anything remotely dutch

There’s a Kingsley road cycle lane here in Liverpool.

Mostly used by overweight taxi drivers parked up reading papers.

From what I see on that Southampton one, the only thing remotely “Dutch” is the “Dutch” in the label that someone attached to it.
Dutch would be to make the bikes peel off to the left, cross in a similar manner to pedestrians, in 2 stages. And concrete/kerbs used.

edit, or have 2 way fully segregated on one side of the road, rather than 1 lane each side.

@pdw, read the rest of my comment, the bottom bit, it is taken from the DfT guidelines.

9.2 Sightlines
9.2.1 These need to be good enough for cyclists and pedestrians to have clear warning of each other’s
approach. An uninterrupted view is particularly important at junctions where both cyclists and pedestrians
will be concentrating on the carriageway. As a starting point, the minimum sightline distances given in
Table 3 of TD 36/93 may be adopted, i.e. 4m for sharp bends and a design speed of 10 km/h 6 mph?, and
26m for large radius bends and straights and a design speed of 25 km/h 15 mph?. In general a design
speed of 30-35 km/h is desirable for cycle facilities.

My bold

mrmo do you have a url link for the above info, really interesting. Thanks for sharing

shem, I linked to the pdf in the previous comment.
but anyway

http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/LTN%202-04%20Adjacent%20and%20Shared%20Use%20Facilities%20for%20Pedestrians%20and%20Cyclists.pdf

What I will mention, I don’t know if this is still current. Its existence and widespread ignorance, suggest there is a problem and that no one is really interested in sorting it out.

Oops, many thanks. yes I agree, think its known as the tragedy of the Commons. Everyone thinks that some one else will ‘sort it’

Is it just me who finds that Dutch blog kind of depressing? In the sense that I don’t believe we’ll ever get that here – not when those making planning decisions simply don’t have a clue and still consider that motor vehicles have to be prioritised over other forms of transport.

I particularly read http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/04/delays-at-traffic-light-controlled.html with interest – I use a light controlled pedestrian crossing daily which suffers from this issue (except it’s actually far worse) and the response from the council is that they won’t do anything which will cause more delays to vehicles on the road (despite the fact my suggestion to improve things wouldn’t delay vehicles at all, and even if it did it would just mean cars spent a little longer at those lights and a little less time in the queue they joined further down the road). Depressing that cars have to be prioritised over every other mode of transport.

With referance to the Dutch cycling comments, my other half is Dutch and she told me of the deaths on roads from the increase in cars, and then the 1970s oil crisis is how they got there cycling infrastructure that they have today, and to them bikes are just cheap transport, low cost, disposable items, far different to what bikes are marketed here in the UK,

Re the road riders who need proper roads, if we all keep mowing down groups of Roadies in our cars who ride 3-5 abreast on our counties roads with no road craft and militant attitudes to the cars they hold up whilst we are driving then maybe we will get the same investment here in the UK 😉
Only joking 🙂
There is indeed as the OP says not many Cycle routes i know of that i would ride a road bike on, plenty of great routes for my CX bike and 29er, i prefer the sand of the coast away from everyone to be honest 😆

Anyways here is a nice film about how the Dutch got their cyclepaths 🙂

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o[/video]

Is it just me who finds that Dutch blog kind of depressing? In the sense that I don’t believe we’ll ever get that here – not when those making planning decisions simply don’t have a clue and still consider that motor vehicles have to be prioritised over other forms of transport.

no, not just you 🙁

Thanks mrmo – I read your previous post too quickly and thought the URL related to Sustrans.

It’s interesting that we generally build our roads to a very high quality, with a great deal of consistency to how things are constructed and signed, but the same approach is not applied to cycle facilities.

For example, a few years ago, some work was done a bridge over a railway on the A40. The relevant safety standards required a new crash barrier with angled ends. Unfortunately, these angled ends largely obstructed the adjacent cycle path. It became clear that the requirement for angled ends was completely non-negotiable, but that there was no corresponding requirement that cycle paths be kept clear of low level, solid concrete obstructions. The “solution” was a bit of white paint and a reflective post on the end of the barrier. The latter disappeared at some point and took months of pestering to get it replaced, making for a lethal obstruction in the dark.

Until we somehow many to place the same importance on quality of cycle path construction as we do to the rest of the roads, we’re going to see no end to the crap that keeps the excellent Cycle Facility of the Month in business.

Remember though that the dutch thing isn’t about building cycling facilities per se..its about making places safer for all people to move around in. Its radically different to our idea of road safety where we claim roads are safe as casualties are falling when the reality is that more and more people are just refusing to walk or allow their kids to walk about.

Every time someone knocks on your door rant at them about traffic, how unhealthy it is and how it drains money out of your local economy.

Will we end up with roadies having to drive or ride slowly from where they live to roads which don’t have any cycling infrastructure, making it more difficult for many who have cycling infrastructure near their homes to be able to do a quick from their door session?

There’s a segregated cycle lane running north from Madrid to the town of Soto del Real, 40km or so away. You can easily do 40km/h there, great sightlines, a decent width (it’s two-way traffic), and of course no cars. It’s hugely popular with roadies training. Including me, it must be said 🙂

(And just beyond Soto the mountains start, which helps!)

It’s interesting that we generally build our roads to a very high quality, with a great deal of consistency to how things are constructed and signed, but the same approach is not applied to cycle facilities.

This is the insane part, the DfT produce rules that define how roads should be and roads are built to these, the DfT also produce rules that define how cycle paths should be and these are ignored.

We don’t need to go the “dutch” route in many ways, we just need planners to read the guidelines and implement them!

We need legislation to force planners to implement the guidelines – presumably they’re not actually allowed to build sub-standard roads. Though as with all stuff like this, car is king.

in contrast to my earlier post about Royal College Street, here is a photo showing the “old” segregated dual-lane system that was ripped out and rebuilt in favour of the new “soft” dutch design…

it was not perfect in that there were some near misses at the junctions, but the huge concrete strip running alongside the cycle lane stopped vehicle infringement into the cycle lane

that’s more Dutch

@andytherocketeer

yeah that’s true, and the sad thing it cost £1 million for the 1km road when it was installed, money now wasted as it was ripped out for the new scheme.

the main issue was priority at the junction with Pratt Street (see photo above) because motorists would be looking right (at oncoming one-way motor traffic) and ignore southbound cyclists.

However, if you are riding a bike and come to this junction, common sense dictates you slow down and watch that motorists, not speed through and seem surprised when you are run over? I used this road for many years and never had a collision.

the rebuild with the plant pots and paint cost just £50,000 in comparison.

the dutch would plough straight thru.
the dutch on scooters (also allowed on bike paths if engine is small) would plough straight thru on full throttle, without looking at anything, as if invincible (law is on their side).

even if all the roads in UK were made just like Dutch, it’ll still take a decade of mentality change. Just things like turning left (right in NL) or exiting a roundabout or crossroads… in a car you *will* have to give way at every junction, and check mirror to see what’s coming up the inside. driving lessons and test need to change too. truck drivers will check mirrors, lots, but car drivers?

slightly odd bus stop on that street too. in NL, they’d put the bus stop between cycle path and road. things migt narrow down a bit, and deviate from a dead straight line, so there’s half a bus layby but no parking on other side (for example).
again, a decade of mentality change, and bells on bikes so that pedestrians “expect” cyclists.

According to hembrow the Dutch don’t like shared space when cars are allowed into it as cars take over.

I’m waiting to see what cock a hoop design Surrey county council complete in Ashtead, after they ignored everyone’s views and opinions…