“More likely fighting a phoney civil war based on false assumptions of why they lost the last election”

What?

THM thinks it is likely that the Labour Party is fighting a fake civil war based on the incorrect reasons why they didn’t win the last general election.

Although he doesn’t say it I think we should assume that THM knows the real reasons why Labour lost the last election.

I have no idea why he thinks it isn’t a genuine civil war, although to be fair he only talks about “likely” so he’s presumably still entertaining the possibility that it might be a proper civil war.

HTH

Phoney in relation to the subject/battle ground.

I have my thoughts yes, but my comments are based more on the Labour Party/Fabian Society/independent polls’ data – all pretty clear.

Rather than this inelegance lurch backwards, I would rather see a genuine opposition with forward looking policies capable of challenging the government. Society would be healthier for it. Plus as before, the whole LW v RW debate is completely out of date anyway.

HTH

Remember that time when we declared war on drugs, and as a result, there’s no drugs anywhere. So then we moved on to terrorism, and resoundingly defeated terrorism. What will we do once we’re finished with poverty?

That’s a very good analogy!

I have my thoughts yes, but my comments are based more on the Labour Party/Fabian Society/independent polls’ data – all pretty clear.

But this phoney civil war is based on false assumptions ?

Won’t someone tell one side the truth. Obviously both sides can’t be right in this phoney civil but I think side should be……don’t you ?

@kimbers 🙂

@Northwind, we’ve been round in circles about responsibility for the crises but Labour where at the helm for 10 years prior, they oversaw and contributed to the conditions that lead to it (and remember Salmond encouraged RBS to pursue the merger which destroyed the bank) and they made critical errors in the aftermath including crippling Lloyds by facilitating their take over of Halifax-Bank of Scotland, paying too much for RBS and most importantly not reducing public spending after the crash. All this and Gordon Brown declared “boom and bust” was over, not smart.

Indeed hence the adjective “phoney”, that is the second simple bit.

Obviously both sides can’t be right

Of course not…

Plus as before, the whole LW v RW debate is completely out of date anyway.

Hmm – elements of it are not though.

Big state vs small state
Help each other vs help yourself
Public vs private

And so on.

is a fair point but when in PMQ’s or any interview with a conservative and the questions get sticky the fall back position is to blame Labour for the global economic meltdown.

Even after 5 years in power

About 20 years ago I was listening to ‘Today’ on R4, when some Tory bigwig was trying to explain their latest F***Up, he gave the excuse that “We are still cleaning up the problems created by the last Labour government”. What the one you replaced in 1979, and you have been in power for over 18 years.

To paraphrase Marcus Brigstocke, my Irony Meter went onto overload

Hmm – elements of it are not though.

Big state vs small state
Help each other vs help yourself
Public vs private

And so on.

More relevant now than ever before I’d say.

Entertaining video on the Tory conference from a Guardian journalist…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi9jajDuKgY[/video]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/08/hate-tories-conservatives-dominance-pointless-protest

Important role for the state v import role for the state
Punlic and private v public and private
Help each other v help each other

Yes, pretty redundant debate clearly

Its specially redundant if you ignore what was said and re write it.

About 20 years ago I was listening to ‘Today’ on R4, when some Tory bigwig was trying to explain their latest F***Up, he gave the excuse that “We are still cleaning up the problems created by the last Labour government”. What the one you replaced in 1979, and you have been in power for over 18 years.

Not unique to Tories. Gordon Brown was still blaming Thatcher 16 yrs after she left office.

Another witty Guardian article taking the piss from all three conference parties:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/08/frankie-boyles-conference-roundup-haunted-tennis-ball-slytherin-chancellor-politics?CMP=share_btn_fb

This made me laugh…

Then came Theresa May, a woman who exudes all the compassion of stage 4 bone cancer, talking of her party’s “proud history” of helping vulnerable people. They have never helped vulnerable people and they are very proud of that.

Entertaining video on the Tory conference from a Guardian journalist..

A better article though, clearly a thread on here is not the ideal place for deep thought either.

bout 20 years ago I was listening to ‘Today’ on R4, when some Tory bigwig was trying to explain their latest F***Up, he gave the excuse that “We are still cleaning up the problems created by the last Labour government”. What the one you replaced in 1979, and you have been in power for over 18 years.

To paraphrase Marcus Brigstocke, my Irony Meter went onto overload

But do you remember Andy Burnham at the 2009 Labour conference blaming the rise in hospital car parking fees on “years of shameful Tory underinvestment in the NHS”

Its the game – they both do it, stop pretending that one is better than the other for it.

irc – Member

Not unique to Tories. Gordon Brown was still blaming Thatcher 16 yrs after she left office.

You mean stuff like this ?

Gordon Brown ‘admires’ Margaret Thatcher

Your photo collection gets more impressive by the day Ernie? How many do you have now – is it 000s or 0000s?

You are so predictable THM.

Just admiration Ernie, it’s a work of devotion clearly. No one else on STW comes close. I still reckon only 000s though.

Ah, the great lady 😀

C’mon lefties – have you figured out a response to this yet?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDF6blmU3co[/video]

The problem with you oh-so-clever digs and retorts THM is they do make you seem rather dim. I genuinely cringe in embarrassment on your behalf.

😀 😀

Some here (and indeed in the Labour movement) might do well to reflect on this paragraph:

On Sunday, I spent time among the anti-Tory marchers and asked them if they understood why people voted for the enemy. Granted, a demonstration is not the ideal place for deep thought, but the replies were still depressing. Conservative supporters were “uneducated”, “selfish”, and “brainwashed”. It is strange, perhaps, to meet socialists with such a dim view of their fellow human beings, but there we are.

(and indeed on much else in that article)

As the Iron Lady once say … No No No … to bastid ZM EU bureaucrats!

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4#t=36[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVt_1ByddUQ[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TPpuIslzG4[/video]

More Nos to the bastid EU ZM bureaucrats!

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLe8M-cLVw[/video]

The nasty party conference…

What? The SNP conference is next week you know…

What? The SNP conference is next week you know…

That’s exactly what I first thought when I read the title

Some here (and indeed in the Labour movement) might do well to reflect on this paragraph….

Having watched the video, I’m sure the more aggressive protesters are counter-productive, if I was inside the ring of steel, I’d just think ‘f*** those yobs, we’ll show them’ and feel much more emboldened to push through with certain policies….

Having watched the video, I’m sure the more aggressive protesters are counter-productive, if I was inside the ring of steel, I’d just think ‘f*** those yobs, we’ll show them’ and feel much more emboldened to push through with certain policies….

I agree with this. As much as I loath the Tories I don’t like to see people spat at. It does nothing to advance the protest, just makes them look bad.

Political fortunes change quickly, I think Theresa signed her own death warrant with that speech, however George’s magpie policies were a clear staking of his claim for 2020.

Boris is still very much in the running, still polls well and has made a couple of interesting snide remarks over Coke and hookers recently, and a long history of some fairly big philosophical differences with the right of the party, so is definitely in the running if they continue down the ONT path.

I’d just think ‘f*** those yobs, we’ll show them’ and feel much more emboldened to push through with certain policies….

Maybe, but what a state we’re in if govt. policy is decided on the basis of petty personal reactions!

Boris is still very much in the running, still polls well and has made a couple of interesting snide remarks over Coke and hookers recently

I think hes got a damn good chance

I could see the telegraph digging up the dirt on Osborne at just the wrong time, and the Hate Mail too, already turning on Cameron (and Osborne) for their pro EU/migrant stance

Borris would do well to not say too much about the EU as its a poisoned chalice for any wannabe party leader, especially a Torry one

I’m pretty sure that it’s not the politicians being swayed by the yobs or the general disdain for Tory supporters but rather those who voted Tory or are more right-leaning (often because of the media scaremongering but that’s a different topic…) but are potential labour voters who understandably don’t like being called scum/nasty/etc.

To me it just switches them off and means that the better arguments aren’t heard.

Of course, there’s negative behaviour on both sides but it seems to me that the lefties tend to be called naive/stupid/soft/etc which are less harsh than the right wingers being called scum, selfish, etc.

I could see the telegraph digging up the dirt on Osborne at just the wrong time

You do get the feeling that there will be a pig ceremony or black bag and ropes buried in his past….

Boris is still very much in the running, still polls well and has made a couple of interesting snide remarks over Coke and hookers recently

I hope they do elect Boris. He’d be electoral kryptonite to everyone outside the Tory heartlands. The bumbling good egg shtick may play well to a receptive audience of Londoners, it looks very different from outside

Political fortunes change quickly, I think Theresa signed her own death warrant with that speech

I can’t see that is necessarily true. May, or Theresa as you fondly like to call her, at this stage of the game needs to appeal to the party faithful – although only MPs will select the next leader. Did her speech really go down badly with her party?

I don’t follow Tory Party conferences with any great enthusiasm but I would have thought that she told them exactly the sort of things they wanted to hear.

I can’t imagine that despite the polite applause Tory delegates at the conference really wanted to hear Cameron waffling on about poor black people.