Not great results, but will be interesting to see how news from one part of the UK will be spun

http://www.itv.com/news/border/2016-12-06/education-professor-calls-scotland-figures-shocking/

Lindsay Paterson, Professor of Education Policy at Edinburgh University, says Scotland has gone from being at or above England to below its southern neighbour.

In analysis provided to ITV Border Prof Paterson says:
“Describing the Scottish results of the PISA study as shocking will rightly and quickly become the standard response to their release today. “In science, reading and mathematics, Scotland has gone from being well above-average in developed countries a decade ago to being average today.”

Not on script…

I hope that tertiary education sector is immune from these trends

Westminster cuts “innit” (or Scotish equivalent word).

Small side bet we will not see Sturgeon on TV to discuss this, sorry she’s unavailable today ?

Time for maximum diversion and talk loudly about “the will of the Scottish people”

Walker’s Shortbread anyone?

Westminster cuts “innit” (or Scottish equivalent word).

It isn’t that really. Its the curriculum as dictated by the Scottish Gov. I don’t believe that the curriculum was changed on a budgetary basis. (AFAIK)

Curriculum for Excellence is shite basically and explains the above observations imho. It removes focus the basic 3R’s (rightin, reedin, rithmatik) to try and get children to learn through play and explore…

Doesn’t work at the early stages, and without fundamental basic understandings, the children then cant apply them to a larger puzzle.

For example, think of building a bridge from a variety of blocks. The old curriculums would spent time focussing on each the block types and drilling into the children just exactly how they work in their own right (wrote learning, etc) . Then once thats properly understood, then expanding on that sound understanding to put the blocks together to make the bridge, knowing how each bit works individually.

Curriculum for Excellence would give the children all the block types in a pile and have them explore see how they all go together from the outset.

Thats a grossly simplified interpretation of it, but thats how I see it. And its not the teachers fault, its the government imposing it on them. The scottish gov have pushed this onto teachers would backing it up with sound resources, planning tools, assessment criteria etc etc … its down to teachers to create it on their own. My wife despairs at it compared to the old 5.14 stuff. She has been working for the last 2 years to create a cohesive resource/planner/assessment tool that her school can use. It takes up most of her spare time creating this as there was nothing like it when the curriculum was phased in.

The system is that bad and the outlook bleak, that we talk about putting the boy to a private school at high school age as they are less bound to the pish of CofE and generally acheive better results. He is 4 at the moment!

Its the curriculum as dictated by the Scottish Gov…Curriculum for Excellence is shite basically and explains the above observations imho. It removes focus the basic 3R’s (rightin, reedin, rithmatik) to try and get children to learn through play and explore…

Hopefully wee nippy and co will get back to focusing on things that matter – education is a good start!

THM, tick
Jambalaya, tick
Stoner, tick

Its tory boy Scotland baiting bingo, hoorah.

Wont you think of the children MSP?

Nothing wrong with Scotland – its the performance of the people in charge that we are concerned about. Oh and the kids!

Indeed it is MSP – – with the usual mix of of ignorance, condescension and arrogance I am sure.

Its all folk who don’t live in Scotland as well.

indeed odd that those living in Scotland are less bothered!

Its all folk who don’t live in Scotland as well.

Seems like an appropriate time for me to point out that considering education doesn’t fit in with the SNP’s one and only objective of independence.

Did you actually read fishas post TJ?? 😕 or does your dislike of certain posters on here cloud your judgement that much?.

all other issues are subordinate?

Aye – I read Fishas post. Informed and informative of the issues although not one universally accepted. I was referring to the usual sneering from THM. Jamba etc.

Did you actually read fishas post TJ?? or does your dislike of certain posters on here cloud your judgement that much?.

😉

I was puzzled that TJ opened the thread at all!

Indeed. Not good news, but just a quick check…

All the people who are suddenly very vocally concerned about the Scottish education: did you raise equally loud concerns when the previous PISA results showed England’s education trailing behind Scotland’s?

Stoner – Member
Walker’s Shortbread anyone?

FFS don’t mention the biscuit factory….

Mr Swinney, who will make a ministerial statement at Holyrood on the results on Tuesday afternoon, pledged an “unwavering focus on improvement”.

He said: “There is great strength in Scottish education but these results underline the case for radical reform of Scotland’s education system.

“The results undoubtedly make uncomfortable reading but they contain a plain message: we must continue to make the changes that are necessary to strengthen Scottish education.

“We must recognise that while Pisa is only now being published, it dates from the period in which our own statistics on literacy and numeracy were published and prompted our current programme of reform. Both sets of figures tell us the same thing. Reform is essential.

“That is why last year we launched a comprehensive programme of reform, based firmly on the independent findings of the 2015 OECD review of Scottish education. It is by carrying through on these reforms – no matter how controversial – that we can make Scottish education world-class again.”

Doesn’t seem to be blaming Westminster or the English as some of you (including OP) would hope for. Seems strange to make a thread specifically for Scotland’s drop in performance when Wales was significantly lower in every subject, but I guess you can’t bash the nasty SNP in a Welsh thread can you?

indeed odd that those living in Scotland are less bothered!

Many are, but there isn’t a lot we can do. I do find it interesting that in most areas, devolved institutions seem to perform worse than their English equivalents.

Anecdotally, quite a few valued and experienced teachers have voted with their feet and quit. My mum retired early because she didn’t want to do CFE. My mother-in-law is glad she retired before it was launched. My sister teaches it and hates it – too much emphasis on record keeping and less emphasis on teaching useful stuff. Fortunately, she teaches at an independent school so they don’t have to be slaves to it. Anywhere that outcome based education has been tried has ditched it because it is crap. Oh look – our results say that it is crap too!

On top of that, the SQA is a shambles, mostly because the SNP sent in a bunch of “business consultants” (paid megabucks of public money) to reform it and they pissed off the folk who knew what they were doing enough to make them quit.

Seems like an appropriate time for me to point out that considering education doesn’t fit in with the SNP’s one and only objective of independence.

Nicola Sturgeon explicitly asked to be judged against their record on education. But now they are claiming that the results of a decade of decline doesn’t reflect the current state.

😀

is wee nippy going to copy and paste that Graham?

😉

I do remember this from the book of dreams though

The pre-school sector, schools, and colleges and universities have all benefited from decisions of successive Scottish Governments, including massive expansion of nursery places, a radical overhaul of schools through the new Curriculum for Excellence (CfE), reform of the college sector, free university tuition and support for Scotland’s world-class universities.

Rhetoric v reality?

They are very lucky that scrutiny of results is so low, eh?

Nicola Sturgeon explicitly asked to be judged against their record on education.

Indeed….

devolved institutions seem to perform worse than their English equivalents.

Like what?

Curriculum for Excellence is…

My wife, a Primary Teacher in Edinburgh, would agree with this, in part.

Other contributing factors I hear the teachers discussing are the reduced resources to cope with the kids who might previously have been in special schools; the increasing volume of great new ideas which have to be fitted into the week at the expense of core subjects and the reducing effectiveness of formal disciplinary policy in dealing with misbehaviour.

I don’t know what the answers are but I’m glad I’m not a teacher.

is wee nippy going to copy and paste that Graham?

She’s welcome to it.

Just saying, I don’t remember you jumping up and down about England’s previous PISA results, or as km79 points out the Welsh results.

Some might think you have some kind of political axe to grind here. 😆

(Incidentally there was a nice piece on the Today programme this morning where Harvey Goldstein, professor of Social Statistics at Bristol University, explained why comparing PISA scores was “statistical garbage”).

True – Graham, I dont like politicians who fail to tell the truth and who dont do what they say – in all countries and parties. One party stands out there….

I dont like politicians who fail to tell the truth and who dont do what they say – in all countries and parties

The list of politicians you like must be very short 😆

One party stands out there….

Oooh ooh is it the greenest party ever?

It is!! Its all relative 😉

In many places, the government is scrutinised effectively though!

I don’t remember you jumping up and down about England’s previous PISA results, or as km79 points out the Welsh results.

Was there a thread on this in 2012 when England was behind Scotland in Reading and Maths?

One where THM and Jamba have a go at Call Me Dave for focussing on the bread and circusses of the 2012 Olympics rather than properly running the country?

I must have missed it

I am a regular critic of gov education policy – keep then out of education is more my tag line

Anway back on topic….

Good news Graham is that at least Swinney is spinning the news making a statement at 14:30. No sound from Nicky Morgan yet!!

ah the usual whataboutery. whilst those of us with children in scottish schools know exactly what 10 years of decline in standards looks like

Wow…
Can you proindy/snp chappies genuinely not offer or accept the slightest criticism of the SNP?

Any suggestion that the SNP should be responsible for negative results of any decisions they have made in government over the last 10 years is greeted with cries of “well you would say that, you big meanie!”

I live in Scotland and I’m against Scottish independence, but I could also easily list a series of past and present issues I have with the “unionist” parties in the UK.

Why do people find it so hard to accept valid criticism the SNP?

Why do people find it so hard to accept valid criticism the SNP?

Dissent is forbidden

is wee nippy going to copy and paste that Graham?

I do remember this from the book of dreams though

Good news Graham is that at least Swinney is spinning the news making a statement at 14:30. No sound from Nicky Morgan yet!!

Yes it defiantly sounds like an interest in educational standards, thank god you aren’t just using this as a pathetic excuse for some snp bashing 🙄

*whispers* I’m not pro-indy or even particularly pro-snp. I’m just thm-sceptical 😉

always good to be sceptical Graham!

The problems start early, these subjects are badly taught at primary level because the teachers don’t understand them

Wow…
Can you proindy/snp chappies genuinely not offer or accept the slightest criticism of the SNP?

The SNP government certainly aren’t perfect and if there has been a decline in education acheivement in recent years then it does need some closer scrutiny

I’m just slightly dubious as to some of the posters motives given that have no skin in the game and it just sounds like SNP Baaad with a bit of name calling thrown in for good measure.

Although at least Wee Nippy is a bit less nonsensical than the Deceitful Other

eat the pudding. I have no issue with criticism of the SNP that is valid. I dislike the constant sniping from english toryboys with no understanding of the issues.

BTW – I am not an SNP supporter. Never voted for them.

I do find it interesting that in most areas, devolved institutions seem to perform worse than their English equivalents.

I find it interesting that we use one form of measure for education systems around the world that all have different priorities and outcomes (for political and social reasons) – and then that so many people believe in them entirely.

I also think we do have an issue with some of our standards, however the reasons why are more complex than the PISA tests and some commentators (‘I blame the teachers’ and ‘We must have MOAR of new strategies’) attitudes.

One of the main issues in Scotland is the need to do many things in every school, rather than a few things well. Thankfully Mr_Swinney has suggested that schools should do less, but better, as a starting point recently.

wee nippy was duckman’s suggestion – he directed me to the FB page as an antidote to WoS

its tough having no understandign though – it means that when we divide 120k by 5.4m we dont get 1:10!!! If only we knew better….

So is criticism of the SNP’s education results valid or no, I wonder? It was a flaghsip after all….