It’s car-crash TV, by design. The ‘gypsy’ element is practically coincidental, they’ve just found a group of excessively boisterous people and filmed them playing up for the camera

No shit? 😯

Gypsy is not a lifestyle is a racial group that came to this country in the 1500s from northern India via the Balkans , Spain and Russia and turkey. Our languaged maintained its Indian base but also loaned words from the respective countries that we passed through. Don’t confuse us with Irish travellers who are British (though some have married into Romany). Most Romany are settled while a lot of Irish travellers still roam. Irish travellers speak a different language to us. they are not gypsy. Funny how a few get in a hissy over the gorger word when I’ve seen gyppo and pikey thrown about with wild abandon for years on here. All I hope is that you are coisistent in your language use. So Jeremy I hope you use words like ****, pakki and yid as you use the word gyppo. Why should we integrate. Some have a lot haven’t. Do you tell Brits living in Spain to become Spanish. Assimilate…. ?

If I wanted to move to Spain then presumably I’d be a fan of the life and culture, so I’d make an effort to learn the language and ‘fit in’. Why else would I move there?

But then that might just be me, if I go on holiday even I try and learn as something about the language and country; I’ve never understood people who travel to different countries and then spend two weeks in ‘Little England’, eating roast beef and Yorkshire puddings washed down with a pint of Boddington’s in the local British themed pub.

Should you integrate? If you like. Not if you don’t want to. I’m not convinced that any larger dissimilar groups ever truly integrate 100%, unless you count keeping your heads down and staying out of each others’ way as integration. It’s a lot easier to join into a culture than to merge two disparate ones.

Dunno as I was getting hissy over ‘gorger’ per se, I’d to look it up as I’d never heard it before. Words are just collections of letters, it’s intent that’s important, and your usage seemed to scream “us and them” which is why I commented on it. I apologise if I misunderstood there.

Ratswithwings: It was me who said integrate. By that I meant that “our” society (and by that I mean people who are not gypsies) should try to be more tolerant of gypsies, and that gypsies should try to fit in with us a little better. Note I am not saying that the traditions and heritage should disappear, I am however saying that paying tax and not littering would be two good starts. Leaving girls in school to finish their education would be nice too.

As above, these programmes are “car crash tv” and designed to provoke a(negative) reaction but we have all seen previously nice village greens/grassed areas reduced to rubbish dumps and experienced increased crime coincidental with the appearance of caravans. I’m sure there would be less hostility from residents if the grassed areas were left as found. That’s not a matter of denying heritage or tradition, and I feel it’s a fairly small ask in return for a free stay somewhere.

If we are going to share this small, crowded island we need to find a way to make it work a bit better.

If we are going to share this small, crowded island we need to find a way to make it work a bit better.

Well said

But moving back to the programmes. This is the crux of the matter, they use the word gypsy when virtually all of these people are Irish travellers. Most Irish travellers dont even call themselves Gypsy as they are Pavee. They dont speak Gypsy (Romany), they speak Gammon, Shelta or Cant. If they speak with an Irish accent then they are Pavee – Irish Travellers. Its a bit obvious.

So before you moan about people with caravans leaving litter, perhaps you need to ask if they are Irish travellers or Romany before you make a rash statement about Gyppos.

Reminds me of a refugee in the late 90s here in the UK that had been attacked by some racists and their ignorant name calling ‘They called me a pakki’ he exclaimed, ‘but I’m Afghan!’.

Stop lumping us all in together and using the same old myths about litter and tax avoiding. I know loads of Romany that have bank accounts, pay tax, run successful businesses that have been passed down the generations. There’s plenty of Romany millionaires and they done it by the book, legally. Then again I know some that have committed crimes (and been punished), avoided paying tax – just like the rest of society. Most live on their own land and have since they stopped being nomadic but still live in caravans and pay council tax, rates, electricity….. guess what… just like everyone else. And guess what, I know plenty of Romany that are illiterate but still run successful businesses. State education is not for everyone.

Telling Gypsies that they need to do certain things to be seen in a better way is like the Government telling Muslims they need to police their own communities to temper extremism. Well, shouldnt the ‘white’ British community police its own and root out extreme racism? If one section of society has to do it, why shouldnt the other. How many BNP members and nazi affiliates are in jail for arms caches and bomb making equipment? Quite a few – it just hardly gets reported but the great Muslim threat gets maximum exposure.

@ratswithwings apologies if I offended you, and thanks for the education.

can i have a translation of ‘chavvy-kai my boi’ please. i know a little bit of the parlance but not always what it means. 🙂

I’m prepared to accept to believe that there will be fundamentally decent and not so decent folks in all communities.

Recent programme up here focused on Scottish travelling families but again different types from different regions. Tbh the ones who travelled with their fair amusements came across as a relatively decent lot, some of the others were illegal camping types. However I felt sad at the level of prejudice that some had to endure.

That said the dirty littering breaking into others property ones who settled in various places round here for a while recently should be moved on. Usual piles of garden waste, rubble and other crap left in previously unspoilt areas. We’re these Roma or Pavee? No idea but St George flag was proudly displayed.

Re read and iPad and thick finger does not help how it reads…….

I didn’t say Gyppos. I pointed out the unfortunate correlation between the arrival of a fleet of caravans and increased crime/rubbish.

My original post was supportive of the girls in the programme. I balanced that by remarking on some negative behaviour. And qualified it by suggesting that both sides should take steps to address the problem. Whatever a group’s heritage or tradition is, I’m afraid they have to comply with the laws of the land they have chosen to live in, just like the rest of us.

I agree education is not for all, but if those girls wish to break the cycle it will greatly assist them if they can read, write and do maths. For example Margaret in the programme couldn’t produce a pattern because she couldn’t do basic maths. She became frustrated, disappointed, probably embarrassed and then angry. I was not criticising her, just making an observation, and a suggestion that education would help.

Being able to read and write isn’t a chore, it’s liberating, it opens the door to all kinds of experiences and a wealth of wisdom and knowledge – and humour too.

If I wanted to move to Spain then presumably I’d be a fan of the life and culture, so I’d make an effort to learn the language and ‘fit in’. Why else would I move there?

but as as already been clearly stated.. some Roma families have been here since 1500.. and until recently (the last century) the nomadic lifestyle fitted very comfortably alongside settled folk.. and amongst the nomadic people of this country at that time.. (farm labourers and suchlike to name one example)
now that many Roma have been forced into settled life by persecution and prohibitive legeslation, and are increasingly forced to give up those traditions and aspects of their culture, do you not think it’s a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant ‘if you don’t like it don’t come here’ argument..?

as for the generalisation here, I find it abhorrent..
I have a fair few friends from travelling communities, many from as far back as primary school, and some as new as the last couple of years, and all are law abiding, tax paying, community spirited people..

Let’s get back to the OP.

The question I have is whether the young irish traveller women have reduced life choices by being trapped in a lifestyle not of their own making. I believe the lack of education is in itself a form of subjugation and denial of human rights.

One final point, the ritual of ‘grabbing’…..that’s assault isn’t it?

now that many Roma have been forced into settled life by persecution and prohibitive legeslation, and are increasingly forced to give up those traditions and aspects of their culture, do you not think it’s a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant ‘if you don’t like it don’t come here’ argument..?

Its an interesting point you make there, but is it not more a case of a lifestyle that had become increasingly irrelevant as the world has changed?

do you not think it’s a bit offensive to come out with a bigoted and ignorant ‘if you don’t like it don’t come here’ argument..?

THIS

FFS what do you think the perception is of Brits who settle abroad? People who are indistinguishable from the natives or folk who moan about the lack of availability of baked beans and marmite?

It is a human condition to cling to your traditions wherever you happen to be geographically based be it Brits in Spain, travellers here, Asian communities etc.

Bit of understanding and tolerance from both sides is the obvious solution

The travellers used to have sites, facilities and be accepted members of society….if you marginalise folk and treat them like crap they won’t respect your society, values and ways…..because you dont respect theirs.

Karin I agree re-education…but it is our cultural way to believe in this and other views are ok. We may be educated but there will be many many things travellers can do that we cannot do…depends what you value and what you think you need.

Note I am not saying that the traditions and heritage should disappear, I am however saying that paying tax and not littering would be two good starts.

Bit of a massive generalisation there. I wonder when we will start making generalisations about white, middle-aged, upper-middle class men all being complicit in fraud, money-laundering and tax evasion.

Its an interesting point you make there, but is it not more a case of a lifestyle that had become increasingly irrelevant as the world has changed?

aye, you could be right there.. but there’s an undeniable element of chicken or the egg to it..

but there’s an undeniable element of chicken or the egg to it..

Thinking about it, it does seem a bit like travellers are clinging onto a lifestyle which is outmoded now, and that may very well be at the root of the problem. Maybe this is what happens when a particular way of life gets superceded. The actual process of change is pretty brutal, grim, and drawn out, where those in power basically grind those who aren’t into the ground and effectively assimulate them or wipe them out. I can think of reams of historical parallels.

Perhaps the real debate should be how to overcome the issue in a more civilised fashion. Who knows? It would be interesting to have a time machine and take a peak at it with the benfit of hindsight in say a couple of hundred years time.

Chavvy kai my boi – kai means where. But chavvy is more likely to be chavi/chavvie – meaning small child, usually female while chavo is the male equivalent but is less used and chavi has come to represent both genders. Boi doesnt mean anything in Romany. Roughly – where’s your children my boy.

Sorry Karin I didnt accuse you of saying Gyppo.

I agree with some of the things said and disagree with other things. But still it’s not a lifestyle – Romany have been travelling for 1,000 years since leaving Northern India. Gypsies have adapted over the centuries and will do so over the forthcoming ones. This two hundred years has seen the Romany move from living in tents to wagon life and then onto motorised life. All suiting the occupations that they were involved in, predominantly fruit and vegetable picking and general labouring. Transport was required to follow the seasonal fruit and vegetable picking routes and other activities that utilised or required transport. Romany/Traveller life will not change just because they become sedentary, yes there is some marrying out but Romany/traveller life is a community and that includes marrying each other.

But not all Romany are settled, some still travel. Others settled because they had a business to run or had decent long term employment rather than seasonal work that required them to move between different farms within a large area.

More Gypsies and travellers started roaming again once the caravan sites act was repealed in the 1990s. Before that, councils were obliged to provide transient sites for travellers that had not already bought their own land. Councils encouraged travellers to buy their own land as the council sites were being all closed down. This many did but then the same councils refused them planning permission on the land and then evicted them off their own land they had bought and then usually confiscated the land in payment for eviction costs.

Romany were first reported in this country in the 1500s. There have been several waves of Romany to the UK. The ones that have been here the longest are the ones most likely to have married the occasional non-Romany and look less like the Roma in Eastern Europe who remained concentrated and sedentary as slaves until the late 1800s. After the 1800s many Romany came to the UK from the East after being freed from slavery, some stayed in the UK but many moved onto the Americas and other British colonies. Many Romany from the UK also went to the USA and there are many British Romany (also known as Romanichals) there with the same family names as the Romany here such as Smith, Lee, Heron, Loveridge, Hearn, Boswell, Stanley, etc. Many British Romany also migrated to Scandinavia where they are know as Romanishals or Kale which is what many of the Welsh Romany are known as.

Irish travellers came to this country in three main waves the 1850s, the 1960s and the past couple of years due to changes in the law in Ireland. The 1850s wave most probably see themselves as English Gypsies/travellers now, perhaps even some of the 1960s wave do aswell???? But many of them still self identify as Irish/Pavee/travellers and many of them still talk with an Irish accent as they are an isolated community, even if they have been here for generations and never been to Ireland, they will still have the accent.

Some Romany self identify as Travellers, they see it as the umbrella name for all travellers – Irish, Scots, Welsh, Romany and Travellers. Fair Ground people are seen as separate and are called show people. Some Romany don’t like the name Gypsy and don’t use it and prefer traveller while some are still happy to use it.

Romany/traveller life is very traditional with set gender roles. Some do find the life quite suffocating but those tend to marry out. If you stay in the Romany/traveller life then you know what you are getting but is this no different from the traditional tribal lives of bush people of africa, the amazon forest tribes etc etc.

Interesting post ratswithwings.

Kind of relevant but a little OT – this is great IMO:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56grtNzsRq8[/video]

99 problems, but a gypsy girl ain’t one (hundred).

Berm Bandit – Member

1) As General Manager of a company on a trading estate our fleet of vehicles (locked in a secure pound) was ransacked for spares, including such things as doors, bonnets, wheels and engine components. Coincidentally at the same time a traveller encampment that had been on the estate for a few days disappeared overnight. The police advised that ours was the last of a spate of such things that occurred while they were there.

I always end up mentioning this on these threads… Whenever the travellers pitched up on the industrial estate by my old office, we used to get a huge spike of crime. Followed by lots of arrests of local scrotes and insurance fraudsters. Locals see it as open season because everyone will blame the gypos.