After reading the Econmic Adjustment thread it got me thinking – Why are the Greens not doing better in England & Wales?

Most people I talk to seem to want many of the things that the Greens are saying they would deliver on – yet not many seem interested in voting for them and think of them as a single issue party.

A lot of what they say should appeal to most in the working and middle classes, no? I’ve only used them as a protest vote in the past but given the current state of English politics they’d probably be my first choice now. Is it possible that over the next 10 years the Greens could do what the SNP achieved in Scotland?

OUR GREEN GUARANTEE – FROM THE PARTY FOR THE FUTURE

1. An economy for tomorrow

An innovative economy that means business. A redistribution of power, wealth and jobs, for genuine equality and social security. A new economy of sharing, participation and collaboration.

2. A future unlimited by climate change

A green industrial revolution for a jobs rich, energy efficient Britain. Fossil fuels left in the ground and nuclear power in the past. Every building a power station and every citizen owning the technology.

3. A citizens’ democracy

A country where everyone has a voice. A future negotiated not imposed. A fair voting system that allows you to take back power and where every vote counts.

4. Borders for a modern world

A humane immigration policy. A community immigration premium to fairly share the benefits of free movement and build strong social connections. Sanctuary for those in need.

5. Common ownership of public services

From our hospitals to our railways, schools, public spaces and housing – smart, properly resourced, future facing public services that are run by the people for the people.

6. A referendum on the terms of any EU deal

Putting people in control not letting things get out of control. A general election to decide who delivers the deal. A solid commitment to working together to solve common problems.

7. An insurance policy for nature

A promise to always protect the natural world that is our life support system. Every child knowing the value of our bees and bluebells. Every community with access to green space.

8. A new politics of public service

Honest, consistent and principled Green opposition. Cooperating rather than competing with other political parties if it will deliver the best future for Britain.

9. A global force for good

A foreign policy that builds peace. No Trident, whoever’s in charge. Winning hearts and minds. Trading in green innovation not weapons of destruction. Raising living standards not dropping bombs.

10. A right to digital privacy

An internet that’s free of state or corporate surveillance. A digital economy that protects civil liberties. Every citizen in control of their data.

Short term-ism

People don’t vote Green because people don’t Green. The SNP succeeded because folk were willing to vote time and time again. Eventually they looked like they could actually win but that didn’t happen between one GE and the next. Of course PR helped as well.

IMHO the same reason why UKIP won’t be much of a feature come 2020 – although they’ve done better than expected, whilst not a single policy party, they are heavily weighted on one policy and it is the major driver behind all their other polices.

The ‘big two’ saw them coming years ago and sought to nullify them – as soon as it looked like they might be a contender they amended their own policies to include a robust environmental offering, how much they actually do… they don’t have to do much, just enough to appease voters enough to not ‘waste’ their vote on a party that can’t win.

I’m probably a prime green voter, but I don’t vote for them. I would if there were a relatively secure labour government, as leverage to get a relatively left wing government to enact the policies I want to see.

As it is we have a frankly nasty right wing mob in charge and a vote for the greens won’t influence their policy one bit. Voting them out by voting for the biggest alternative is my priority.

See?

Short term-ism

They who have the better celebrities have the largest vote.

I’m a member of the party, agree they have a lot of things that poeple will agree with. I think that a lot of people still think that they are loonie weirdos lol

BigEaredBiker – Member

Why are the Greens not doing better in England & Wales?

FPTP. 3.8% of votes cast gains you 0.15% of MPs rather than the 25 it ought to, and of course deters voters from wasting their vote in the first place- no way to know what share they would get in a more democratic system. Fundamentally 1,134,742 green votes got thrown in the bin

A name change and re brand could work wonders for them. Everyone knows they are pro environmental action. They need to bring their other policies to the forefront to attract more voters.

Because whey seem to think they are a Socialist Workers lite. No thanks, top down planning will never work.

I’d quite like someone to start a pro capitalism green party, then we might start to get somewhere.

Because whey seem to think they are a Socialist Workers lite. No thanks, top down planning will never work.

Watermelons – Green on the outside, red on the inside

An internet that’s free of state or corporate surveillance.

What does this mean?

If the state cannot monitor the internet then how do you prevent it becoming a haven for child pornography and grooming/paedophilia? How to you prevent extremism and violence?

dragon – Member

I’d quite like someone to start a pro capitalism green party, then we might start to get somewhere.

How do you envision that working?

Like this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_libertarianism

Dragon is right, the Greens are too top down.

As part of the libertarian tradition, green libertarians maintain that the government itself is responsible for most environmental degradation, either directly, or by encouraging and protecting politically powerful corporations and other organized interests which degrade, pollute and deplete the natural environment.[citation needed] Therefore, the government should be held accountable to all the same environmental regulations they place on businesses. One problem is that while private corporations or individuals can be sued under the Common Law for damaging the environment, the government protects itself from the same suits. Therefore, green libertarians call for the abolition of sovereign immunity. Increasingly, federal and state law is being amended by lobbyists for those who pollute or extract resources from public lands or waterways so that such actions can no longer be challenged in the courts.

I’ve always liked this idea.

dragon – Member

I’d quite like someone to start a pro capitalism green party, then we might start to get somewhere.

Well, if you start it I’d probably more inclined to vote for a party that exists to promote libertarian values and smaller government. I believe that in some areas the existing Green Party is like this – I don’t think they are all communists in disguise… but I’ve yet to go to a meeting to check.

An internet that’s free of state or corporate surveillance.

What does this mean?

Just had a very quick flick through their website, they don’t really say. At a guess I’d say it means they are against mass survelance and data gathering without a warrant. In a post-Snowdon world I can see a lot of people supporting that.

Yeah, I’d vote for a Green Libertarian party in a heart beat. Both the conservatives and labour are too authoritarian for me and traditional libertarians tend to be too hard in terms of welfare and ignorant of environmental issues.

I’m a green party member but, thanks to our wonderful democracy, haven’t yet been able to vote green where I live.

dragon – Member

Because whey seem to think they are a Socialist Workers lite. No thanks, top down planning will never work.

I’d quite like someone to start a pro capitalism green party, then we might start to get somewhere. I guess you can see them a few different ways – The green party goes back to PEOPLE in the 70s which was founded by soft rotary-club Tories, then Edward Goldsmith joined them as the founder of the ecologist magazine, so in no way was this a party of the left. It’s obv gone through a lot of change over the years, but that type of rural conservative magical thinking is prominent in the greens today, IME, so not interesting, to me. Plus, I’m a scientist so it’s obv a total non-starter to consider a green vote.

Plus, I’m a scientist so it’s obv a total non-starter to consider a green vote.

This is the main thing that pisses me off about a lot of green party members, a purge of all the anti-vaxer, homeopathic astro-hippies would make us far more appealing to the general public.

^^^ Also that

^^^ Also that

Quite agree, there seem to be some sensbile people in this thread 😯

Maybe we could infiltrate…

Most people I talk to seem to want many of the things that the Greens are saying they would deliver on – yet not many seem interested in voting for them and think of them as a single issue party.

Theres a gulf between wanting it and wanting to pay for it. The better society we could build would take about 40 to 60 years to come to fruition. That means we would have to pay for it but not really get to experience it – it would be the next generation would get to live it, and would arguably live in that world at less cost to them than it would cost us to create it.

The ‘wanting it’ isn’t unique to the Greens. Frank Fields was tasked with plotting out a route with similar aims for labour to a happier and more equal society and came to the same conclusion – nobody would vote for the start of the journey.

The SNP’s clever rouse is to take non of those steps…. but are allowing it to be thought that they would have and could have if it wasn’t for that pesky Westminster. The reality is the scottish electorate wouldn’t be any easier to persuade to vote and pay either.

It’s first past the post innit? When offered the opportunity to change it we politely declined.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Yeah, I’d vote for a Green Libertarian party in a heart beat. Both the conservatives and labour are too authoritarian for me

Authoritarianism is exactly what’s required in green government, their most important job is to stop corporations from doing what they want. The only part of the green libertarianism movement that makes any sense to me is full-cost accounting, but they don’t seem to have realised that it’s actually big-government personified.

(the thing about removing sovereign immunity makes sense, but is very regional and doesn’t apply here in the same way. But the underlying premise that governments are the biggest polluters is obvious bobbins and just seems to be standard capitalist redirection, in the same vein as blaming governments for the financial crisis.)

People get principles and politics mixed up They are two completely different things. Politicians appeal to our sense of principles., But principles on their own are often not deliverable in the real world because principles deal with ideals and the real world is not about ideals. Therefore politics is the art of compromise and how you compromise your principles. Unfortunately politicians argue their way to power on the basis of principles therefore that is were the distrust in politicians comes from – in order to get to a position of power the have to promise things they cannot possibly deliver. This is the green Party’s downfall and JC’s too. Most people can actually see that, although the cannot argue with the principles, we understand those principles are impossible to deliver in the real world.

What most people look for is a balance between what they believe in principle and what is going to impact them personally. Mostly the two things are not the same and most people fall on the side of what benefits them personally at the expense of their principles. That is the nature to the real world. Why would anyone sacrifice their own situation for the benefit of the greater good??

After reading the Econmic Adjustment thread it got me thinking – Why are the Greens not doing better in England & Wales?

Have you read their agricultural policy document?

Have you read their population policy document?

Does it remind you of another political movement?

It doesn’t need to be authoritarian, a set of well conceived incentives coupled with good goal setting legislation would go a long way. In the majority of cases the carrot is mightier than the stick and the stick should only be a last resort.

Right I’m off to write a green libertarian manifesto that puts science at its heart. Should be a fun thought exercise.

there is no chance of a right wing pro capitalist green party. simply capitalism is incompatible with green objectives.

Scandanavian countries seem to get this stuff right, not just their politics but organising society in general.
I think we are just a bit thick, succesful mind (British/Anglo Saxons) due to our unsurpassed aggression.

there is no chance of a right wing pro capitalist green party. simply capitalism is incompatible with green objectives.

I’m going to disagree; capitalism does not have to be large psychpathic corporations that put profit above everything else. There are loads of businesses out there that are socially and environmentally responsible and yet, are capitalist in nature.

This view reminds me of how many dismissed Free & Open Source Software as communist 20 years ago, and yet its now how many make their money in software development.

Is it possible that over the next 10 years the Greens could do what the SNP achieved in Scotland?

No the voters are too discerning. Caroline Lucas is much nicer than her rival there though

I used to vote green as green issues are very important to me but I stopped due to the rest of their policies becoming so controlling over other areas, very left wing economics. I have no idea who I would vote for now.

They represent important issues but are let down by shallowness of thinking/policies in core areas as the last election and their manifesto showed all too clearly.

They could be interesting coalition partners for someone though.

Watching Lucas and Rees Mogg trade niceties and laughs on QT last week was refreshing – not that I am suggesting a coalition there!

Scandanavian countries seem to get this stuff right, not just their politics but organising society in general.
I think we are just a bit thick, succesful mind (British/Anglo Saxons) due to our unsurpassed aggression.

I would just blame the French

capitalism does not have to be large psychpathic corporations that put profit above everything else

But no-one has come up with a capitalist system where the large psychopathic corporations don’t dominate. Not yet…

I vote for them

On Question time CL seemed quite keen on a coalition of leftish parties to take the Torys, seems a sensible idea.

In countries with proportional representation Greens typically poll 5-8% eg Germany. They get a few MPs but are never close to power.

Greens have one MP / Council. Have you seen the shambles they have made of it in Brighton (my daughter lives there) – uncollected rubbish etc.

Authoritarianism is exactly what’s required in green government, their most important job is to stop corporations from doing what they want. The only part of the green libertarianism movement that makes any sense to me is full-cost accounting, but they don’t seem to have realised that it’s actually big-government personified.

(the thing about removing sovereign immunity makes sense, but is very regional and doesn’t apply here in the same way. But the underlying premise that governments are the biggest polluters is obvious bobbins and just seems to be standard capitalist redirection, in the same vein as blaming governments for the financial crisis.)

I don’t agree, libertarian values can be used to justify market incentives that discourage pollution.

But no-one has come up with a capitalist system where the large psychopathic corporations don’t dominate. Not yet…

Because as of yet, no one has yet listened to centerist or left wing libertarians – for us, it’s as Doug Stanhope put it – like repeatedly pointing out food to wilfully blind starving people. Then there are some that really loathe us, because using libertarian values to support ecological aims – offends and undermines the Corbyn voting SWP types.

Can’t argue with Stanhope.

I sense sarcasm, but Noam Chomsky makes sense sometimes – although he leans more to the anti-capitalist side.