Peter Oborne has it….

http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/7256618/the-great-euro-swindle.thtml

Very rarely in political history has any faction or movement enjoyed such a complete and crushing victory as the Conservative Eurosceptics. The field is theirs. They were not merely right about the single currency, the greatest economic issue of our age — they were right for the right reasons. They foresaw with lucid, prophetic accuracy exactly how and why the euro would bring with it financial devastation and social collapse.

I particularly recognise being made to feel like some kind of sad, extreme Little Englander for pointing out what an awful idea the Euro was. Right at the time Greece was joining too, I remember it very clearly.

So who’s going to be first with a mea culpa? mmmmm?

kettle’s on, fig roll anyone ? (Greek figs of course).

Bit highbrow for me…..

But I like a nice kebab, so can’t really knock the Greeks

Completely agree with the article, very good.

The swindle bit is presumably where we end up having to contribute towards shoring it up despite not being a member?

Erm… It wasn’t just the Tory right. Gordon Brown wasn’t too keen either. I remember reading in the Guardian years ago economists saying Greece, Portugal and even Italy would never ever in a million years hit the debt/borrowing targets for Euro membership. Then they all joined.

It’d be easier to point out the people in this country who were actually keen. That imbecile Blair springs to mind. But that would have just been to piss Gordon off. Other than that……?

The organisations listed had plenty of dissenting voices from within. To claim the Tory right are some last bastions against the forces of the left is utter cobblers!!

Is there any cake/kuchen/gateau/kage/kakku/ciste/torta/kejk/ciasto/bolo/pastel/kaka/cacen?

I particularly recognise being made to feel like some kind of sad, extreme Little Englander for pointing out what an awful idea the Euro was.

Are you talking about the failing €uro as a single currency without a single fiscal policy? As it stands the €uro is doomed to fail as it is simply a single currency and nothing more. The ECB determines a single strategy for very differing economies.
An interest rate increase to reduce German spending was not a good idea for a struggling Spain, but hey, what do I know?

They foresaw with lucid, prophetic accuracy exactly how and why the euro would bring with it financial devastation and social collapse.

yes the capitalist system those right wingers support is completely free from blame from the current situation and it is just down to the currency. If they had all kept their same currency and not had the euro nothing would be hapening and obviously greece could still service its debt, the German mark would not be rising etc.
The mans a ****** genius.

It has created different issues and exacerbated some and ameliorated some but it is not as simpe as he seems to wish to present it.

More importantly to me – when will the Pound rise in value against the Euro? ( Ideally before November as I’m off to Gran Canaria for a week )

More importantly to me – when will the Pound rise in value against the Euro?

More importantly to me – when will the Euro issue cause the Tory party to implode?

lib dems insulate them from the issue as they ar epro Europe so the tories cant do much as even the most ardent euro sceptic little englander knows.

surely greece, ireland and italy etc would be screwed right now whether they were in the euro or not

the 2008 crash would have left them just as exposed because of all their debt and their skyhigh leveles of tax evasion/avoidance (for italy & greece) would still have left them in the same position

just a quick statistical look at the Swindle bit, using one of my favouritist numerical phenomena:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/16/bad-science-dodgy-stats
http://timharford.com/2011/09/look-out-for-no-1/
http://testingbenfordslaw.com/

Just like have a ‘black sheep’ in the family, gambling away all the money they have or can borrow
You can only help them for so long, after that you have to save yourself or everyone will go down

Time to cut lose any of the struggling states that lied about their finances in order to get EU membership in the first place

surely greece, ireland and italy etc would be screwed right now whether they were in the euro or not

the 2008 crash would have left them just as exposed because of all their debt and their skyhigh leveles of tax evasion/avoidance (for italy & greece) would still have left them in the same position

This is exactly the point kimbers, they wouldnt. Is no way Italy or Greece could have borrowed to the extent they did, the markets let them borrow at the same rate as Germany and France which was insane. Blame the insurance companies, pension funds and other investors who bought their bonds if you want but they just shouldnt have been able to borrow at 3-4%.

ans its the fact that Britain isnt in the Euro that has let us slash rates and devalue our currency that has kept us out of serious trouble even while our debt to GDP heads towards 70%.

I do actually tip my hat to Gordon, who designed his Five Tests to be impossible to meet so as to keep us out.

so why did the big ecconomies let them join without forcing them to behave properly, surely that was the real mistake?

why did the big ecconomies let them join without forcing them to behave properly

political imperialism. The federal european dream.

Looks like Mr Oborne lays into the culprits with both barrels:
http://www.cps.org.uk/cps_catalog2/Guilty_Men.html

political imperialism. The federal european dream.

From an interview I heard, I think it was on a Radio 4 program and it may have been more or less, it was the fact that they didn’t want to be seen to be moving towards a ferderal system that they didn’t impose a more rigorous system of checks to ensure that all the pre requisites for the Euro were being met. Had they done this properly then the situation would have come out earlier or, as seems more likely, never allowed to join in the first place.

just because they didnt want it to look like widening federalism, doesnt mean it wasnt.

tin foil hat on, and >>>>>>> Im gone! 🙂

And I tell you another thing (I dont read the Mail, honestly) when they write a new treaty that constitutes a fiscal union, proper central treasury and so on, and they come looking for a British signature they better be ready to give a whole lot of ground. They can do that if they want, we won’t be a part of it, but no-one in Britain signed up for a whole bunch of stuff that the EU has decided is in it’s domain and I want my say! AND I won’t be happy to painted as some sad, deluded fanatic for saying so.

For a moment I thought this way a cycling forum FFS, you know light banter, bike chat, latest kit, bragging rights, few photos etc

ANd do we go on theses threads and complain of your ignorance of global eco/politics ?
Nice link that Stoner the next 2 days of Geek knowledge acquisition is done …fascinating [ not sarcastic]

EDIT: Not the osbourne link but benford

Time and a place

chat forum for example? ah just spotted wrong place ad I use overview

time and a place? where then?

well i thought gordon was a nob at the time for opposng entry into the euro
funnily enough if labour had never been elected i reckon wwed have sailed in under major and ken clarke

its not admitting i was wrong to stw thats hard its my dad who i had a lot of arguments with at the time!

Thanks for posting that – I saw the cover of TS at the station but didn’t have time to buy it. You have saved me the effort.

I opposed the Euro from the perspective of basic macroeconomic analysis and similarly felt fed up with being treated as economically illiterate, little-Englander.

I guess this was one thing that GB did right, but offset by some many others – remind me when he sold our gold?

Have a look on iPlayer, Peter Oborne was on Newsnight last night, face to face with Sir Richard Lambert (former editor of the FT, former director of the CBI, cheerleader for the Euro) and some spokesman for the EU in Brussels. Oborne called the Eurocrat an idiot (3 times) and chucked a copy of “Guilty Men” at Lambert……”you’re one of them”

Even Paxman had to intercede…..ouch.