Viewing 30 posts - 161 through 190 (of 190 total)
  • The EU debate in Parliament tommorow…
  • TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    do you believe that teamhurtmore?

    I see a lot of exasperation for many years from the rest of the EU about the rhetoric from the UK especially from the tories.

    Sitting in the EU parliament with a bunch of xenophoobes and far right clowns is bad enough and has lost the tories a lot of influence from the right of centre parties in Europe.

    anti EU rhetoric and grandstanding just pees ’em off more. We have lost a lot of influence because of this

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    TJ – 100% yes. He is in an awful position domestically and knows that Angela is in the same boat (well, who isn’t). There is a fundamental block in Europe as to who is going to pay for the next (massive) bail out of the banks that will result from the inevitable collapse of Greece (and possibly Italy, Spain…). NS wants to minimise the losses for Fr banks, AM wants to minimise the impact for Germany…hence the stalemate. Meanwhile, the world is going to hell and back!

    The whinge at the Uk is a mere sideshow. The idea that BMW or L’Oreal would marginalise the UK because of a perceived anti-Eu stance is frankly absurd. They will be driven by business logic.

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    Dear God, I just wish we could move past the fact we are on it and that there is no realistic possiblity of leaving it without bankrupting the country once and for all and just get on with it.

    What I really don’t get is that it was the Tories that took us in and they have just consistently whined about it ever since. MTFU and get on with it you whinging bastards.

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    poly
    Free Member

    The majority of people want a vote. They should, surely, have it? If not what next? Capital punishment?

    How have you determined that the majority of people want a vote? Past experience seems to suggest that the majority of people would probably not even bother to vote.

    AV Referendum (2011) 42% turnout.
    Welsh (2011) devolution referendum 36% turnout. 1997 original referendum 50%.
    N. of England Parliament (postal ballot) 48% turnout.
    Greater London Assembly/Mayor Referendum 34% turnout.
    Scottish Devolution 1997. 60%.

    In fact the only referendum in recent history where there has been an overwhelming turnout was the Good Friday Agreement ballot (81% turnout).

    The reality is the vast majority of the British public couldn’t give a shit about politics, less than 2/3rds even vote at General Elections, and the general trend in turnout has been downwards since the 50’s. And only about 1/3rd bother to vote at the EU parliament elections.

    Even the 1975 EC Referendum which did get a fairly good turnout (64%) got less “interest” than the general elections of the day.

    ohnohesback
    Free Member

    So is that any reason to deny those who do give a sh*t the right to a referrendum?

    I’d have five yearly referenda to renew the UK committment to The EU, NATO, the WTO and the UN.

    poly
    Free Member

    So is that any reason to deny those who do give a sh*t the right to a referrendum?

    Not necessarily – but if the made up claims that the “majority of people want a vote” are rubbish then I can’t really trust the people lobbying for it.

    If the majority have such little interest then presumably they are happy enough with the status quo. Add to that those who do have an interest and are actively in support of EU involvement, as well as those who are Eurosceptic but believe this is not the right time for the debate and it sounds to me like a minority are trying to force through an agenda. Lets face it if a majority of people felt that strongly then UKIP & BNP, the only parties standing on that agenda would presumable have managed to secure more than 5% of the vote in 2010.

    I’d have five yearly referenda to renew the UK committment to The EU, NATO, the WTO and the UN.

    … you wouldn’t be a man with commitment issues would you! Seriously at what cost, and to what end would you continually review agreements which are intended to be for the long term, and why do you not trust the elected politicians to do the job they are supposed to do and run the country, including if necessary looking at each of those on a case by case basis, as and when required and IF parliament thinks it might be wise to exit from one of those (or at least consider it) then allow the people to decide. We could allow the people to vote on every little policy, but its all interwoven and complex issues which people wouldn’t be able to balance (politicians struggle and it is their full time job). The populous would vote for low taxes, higher spending – the two are impossible to reconcile.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The whinge at the Uk is a mere sideshow. The idea that BMW or L’Oreal would marginalise the UK because of a perceived anti-Eu stance is frankly absurd. They will be driven by business logic.

    Very True, but if it makes more sense to make the Mini in Bavaria rather than cowley because of EU regulations, regulations that we would have no involvement in the creation of, then what?

    The short termism of the city, the reliance on over seas investment, non of this places the UK in a good place to go forward as an independent nation with no involvement in Europe.

    GEDA
    Free Member

    Leaving the EU as it “has to much regulation, cost too much” does not make much sence. I am pretty sure that countries like Norway and Switzerland follow most of the EU regulation the members have to but don’t have as much influence. Look like Norway even contribute a lot to to EU: http://www.eu-norway.org/about/

    ohnohesback
    Free Member

    Silly Norway. One day their North Sea oil will peak as well…

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Very True, but if it makes more sense to make the Mini in Bavaria rather than cowley because of EU regulations, regulations that we would have no involvement in the creation of, then what?

    Then that would be a negative. But more likely you would have an over-valued and inflexible currency, inflexible labour laws, excess regulation, so BMW will more likely what they do no -shift 3 series manufacturing to South Africa.

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    But more likely you would have an over-valued and inflexible currency, inflexible labour laws, excess regulation,

    Isn’t that what Dave and the kids are after?

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    BB – !!

    The tragedy for Europe (but boost for the rest of the world) is that they are saddled with an uncompetitive currency that prevents them from boosting competitiveness. Meanwhile the US and UK, major emerging market economies and even the Swissies have been actively weakening their currencies.

    The similarities with the collapse of the Gold Standard are striking.

    mt
    Free Member

    Just a little commercial note for some of you. BMW makes one third of all it’s European profits from the UK.

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    The similarities with the collapse of the Gold Standard are striking.

    I think the point you might be overlooking is that our ability to weather the storm or otherwise is not greatly moved one way or the other by whether we are in Europe or out. This is the issue the Europhobes can’t get their heads around. In actual fact paddling our own canoe island further away from europe will not isolate us from what is going on there. There is sitll some impression in this country that we are somehow superior to everyone else. We are not, nor are our former colonial advantages and marketplaces open to us any longer.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    There is sitll some impression in this country that we are somehow superior to everyone else. We are not, nor are our former colonial advantages and marketplaces open to us any longer.

    i think that sums up the entire sceptic mindset
    just because great? britain had a brief flirtation with being a superpower many years ago doesnt mean that going it alone we would somehow be stronger than the rest of the EU

    it also goes back to why the mail sun etc sell so well, because people like to hear silly lies about how the french are with their rules about straight bananas or eu law/assylum/cat issues

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    I think the point you might be overlooking is that our ability to weather the storm or otherwise is not greatly moved one way or the other by whether we are in Europe or out.

    BB- that is not the point I am making. The similarities I refer to relate to who decided to leave the Gold Standard and when.

    The tragedy of the 1930s was that, in each case, the politicians who found the freedom to act only did so when they understood that the world of currency rules was over, and that currency policy was an indispensable tool for offsetting social unrest and gaining competitive advantage.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The tragedy of the 1930s was that, in each case, the politicians who found the freedom to act only did so when they understood that the world of currency rules was over, and that currency policy was an indispensable tool for offsetting social unrest and gaining competitive advantage.

    And in 1939 we all know what happened. You can look at the past as much as you like and there will always be a detail that gets overlooked.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    Just a little commercial note for some of you. BMW makes one third of all it’s European profits from the UK.

    A bit of room for some discount come new car time, no?

    kimbers
    Full Member

    and the winner is……………

    common sense
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

    the only looser is cameron really

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    111 rebels Cameron is badly damaged by that.

    chewkw
    Free Member

    No to EU.

    Cameron got no balls. 😆

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    correction 85 rebels – the 111 includes some labour.

    still the biggest rebellion for a long time and more than half the backbenches.

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    SO the Tory self destruct button is firmly pressed once more. Hurrah!

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I struggle with long sentences, but has anyone made any ‘rebel scum’ jokes yet?

    “Come, boy, see for yourself. From here, you will witness the final destruction of the Alliance and the end of your insignificant rebellion.”

    theloner
    Free Member

    And now, the ultimate tantrum-Merkel threatens WAR if Germany can’t have it’s own way. Priceless.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    We have a historical obligation: To protect by all means Europe’s unification process begun by our forefathers…

    Aye Angela, I’ll bet Poland is over the moon at the prospect… 😯

    One People, One Nation, One Leader

    theloner
    Free Member

    Anschluss anyone?

    Lifer
    Free Member

    She was referring to Charlemagne, hobviously 🙄

    MSP
    Full Member

    “We have a historical obligation: to protect by all means Europe’s unification process begun by our forefathers after centuries of hatred and blood spill”

    Sounds more like she is trying to avoid war,

    You can return to frothing at the mouth now.

    Markie
    Free Member

    TandemJeremy

    111 rebels Cameron is badly damaged by that.

    I disagree. I think this would have been an immensly damaging rebellion in the days before fixed term parliments, but given the political set up a the moment (fixed term parliments, in a coalition, weak opposition) I think it will be seen to scarcely matter in the medium term (3 to 6 months).

Viewing 30 posts - 161 through 190 (of 190 total)

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