The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people – they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

The days of majority politics in this country finished 20yrs ago. Politicians will do what they want and not give a hoot about what people want. Thats so clear now that no wonder so few vote. Wake up people – they dont give a monkeys what anyone says.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo. We get different reporting (propaganda if you see it yhat way). We know that our debt : GDP ratios are better than the UK when bank bail outs are included. We know the euro has made trade and travel easier and given us a more stable, though irritatingly stong, currency. We know that our economies aren’t threatened any more by Greece than the US is by California. We know we have a quality of life and health/education systems that mean we have the human capital to ride out storms that will leave others beached or sunk.

Tell that to the Spanish with their 20% umemployment, Edukator.

Only if you view Europe through the British media, temahurtmore and mcboo

Weeeeeeell…..I’m pretty agnostic when it comes to Britain in Europe to be honest fella, I don’t feel all that strongly either way. What I’m pretty sure about is that the public havent been asked for their view for a long long time. Sorry if that comes across as zealotry.

As for the British Media, here’s a few newspapers that supported (campained for) UK membership of the Euro.

The Guardian
The Independent
The Financial Times
The Daily Mirror

The anti-Euro press

The Times
The Telegraph
The Sun
The Express
The Mail

Lets agree to leave out the Star and the People, thats 4 pro, 5 anti, this is hardly Putin’s Russia or Berlusconi’s Italy. We all have a choice of paper to read……

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

more people vote in big brother than in an election

wtf would you let them vote on pulling out of the uks biggest trade partnership?

the torries have been happy to pander to media hysteria and xenophobia when it comes to europe for the last 15 years,
infact they still do, look at theresa may repeating a lie about eu laws, an assylum seeker and his cat, 1st told by nigel farage!, prefaced with ‘this is not a lie’, at their confrence
the sun, star, murdoch press, express, mail,telegraph have been spouting this same bollox for years, just look how many jump up on here waving their anti-euro hard-ons about- at the mere whiff of a referendum.
yet even the cons know we are better off in europe than out

OK the right-wing press sell more but whose fault is that?

The idiots that buy the Sun, Express and Daily Mail (and actually believe what they read)? Those papers dominate the print media in terms of circulation, and they all absolutely disgraceful.

They are routinely filled with outrageous lies and distortions about the EU (and lots of other things), with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

I lived in Spain for a year and soon figured that of the 20% unemployed (the figure was exactly the same 20 years ago) the majority were working in the black economy.

OK so we’ve now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?

it’s for their own good 🙄

with not even any attempt to be fair or balanced.

Oh grum you are the very best.

Edukator – good for you and for your enthusiasm and positivity. I hope that you are correct but fear that you are not. The phrase

though irritatingly stong, currency

is a masterly example of understatement.

So Grum – I agree with your sentiments (at least here and in part) but what do you do about it? As Mcboo points out, whose fault is it that the RW press sell more. Of course, the fact that any political debate is framed by the tabloid press is a difficult one. Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.

FWIW, the FT, The Economist and the BBC have, in my opinion, been biased towards Europe – but when you look at the FT circulation figures, what does it matter what “your banker friends” 😉 read?

OK so we’ve now agreed that only Guardian readers and Radio 4 listeners should be allowed to vote?

it’s for their own good

No just people that aren’t idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don’t read/believe the Daily Mail though.

Yes, it makes you tear you hair out in despair, but surely if we are in the minority then that is a fact that we have to live with in a democracy.

I don’t personally see that having a ‘free press’, an apparent cornerstone of democracy, means letting newspapers peddle vile bigoted lies to millions of people.

. Really not worth the effort.

By which you mean only people who agree with your opinion, I assume?

Like where I said this?

I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don’t read/believe the Daily Mail though.

OK, so everyone defending open referenda- do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner? We’ve seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country.

It’s not a particularily pleasant truth but when I put my ideals up against the reality, reality wins.

No just people that aren’t idiots. I know plenty of people whose political views I strongly disagree with, but I respect them. They don’t read/believe the Daily Mail though

not people like you of course? – you’ll be way, way above that level

We’ve seen exactly what happens if we throw things open in a referendum in this country, and it stinks. I throw a tantrum if my side loses

Fixed

mcboo – Member

Fixed

Very good. Answer the question?

“do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner?”

Here’s what passes for journalism in one of our most popular newspapers.

The story said: “Callous asylumseekers are barbecuing the queen’s swans. East European poachers lure the protected Royal birds into baited traps, an official Metropolitan Police report says.”

Presswise asked the police about the alleged incidents and found that no one had been charged with any such offence in relation to swans.

The Sun printed a clarification on page 41 of the paper on Saturday that was agreed with the PCC.

It stated: “While numerous members of the public alleged that the swans were being killed and eaten by people they believed to be Eastern European, nobody has been arrested in relation to these offences and we accept that it is not therefore possible to conclude yet whether or not the suspects were indeed asylum-seekers.”

According to Presswise, The Sun has not gone far enough.

A spokesman said: “There is no solid evidence to support a sensational story that has entered the public imagination, yet five months later The Sun is simply obliged to run a disclaimer that it confused conjecture with fact.”

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=24624&sectioncode=1

Deliberately stirring up hatred against asylum seekers by making things up – and this is where millions of people get their information from.

“do you honestly believe that the av vote was settled fairly, by people voting in an informed manner

Do you believe that any general election is?

oh, and to answer your question
as much as any election/vote is

Hey it’s a free country, people voted as they saw fit. I’m not in the least surprised they didnt vote for AV as the argument self-evidently just wasn’t made.

Awful lot of snobbery on here lately from people who think they know better than the man on the street.

Wasnt ‘Animal Farm’ on the curriculum when you guys went to school? ‘1984’?

uplink – Member

Do you believe that any general election is?

I can’t remember any general election where one side was so reliant on outright lies.

For that matter, I can’t remember any general election where a third of the vote would be described as a total defeat or rejection of a party. Certainly not the last one.

Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?

Incidentally- you’ve made the incorrect assumption that I was pro-AV. You don’t have to have been pro-AV to look at the referendum campaigns and see a total contempt for voters, and an outright intent to mislead.

Mcboo, the ‘man on the street is an idiot, apparently. Not fit to have an opinion, unlike those who are ‘right.

Mcboo, will you answer the question or not?

Yes it was a fair vote.

But wait a minute, if I think that, does that make me politically unsafe? Am I off the electoral register or will you give me another chance Northwind? Let me know once you and Grum have formed a Peoples Committee and come to a verdict.

Will you answer the actual question, rather than some other question that you’d rather answer?

The “man on the street” is not an idiot. But if you give someone a plate of lies, and ask them to make a decision, they won’t neccesarily give you the same decision as they would if they had been given the truth- or at least, 2 equal and opposite servings of lies 😉

The opposition to women getting the vote had similar arguments to some of these here, I really can’t believe that there are some folks that think only people they approve of should be able to vote

Kier Hardie will be turning in his grave

So, those that support a referendum – you think it’s a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May’s lies about asylum seekers and cats? That’s good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?

are some folks that think only people they approve of

It’s not about approving of them, it’s about being sufficiently informed. If you’ve looked at all the info and decided you’re against membership of the EU, then that’s fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that’s not fine.

Both, Mcboo. Here “les lumières” and “humanisme”, and philosophy are part of the “programme de l’éducation nationale”. Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.

Being critical and perceptive are skills that we need to teach everybody if democracy is to function.

Absolutely.

OK lets be brutal about this, the man on the street is not so much an idiot, that would be going to far. He is, how shall we say distracted, the average man on the street believes that the political class exists for his benefit, however jaded they may be with talk of expenses, or with the carry on of Murdoch’s press. Deep down there is still the belief that politicians are running the country for the good. In particular their good.

So it is that the voter will allow the sell off of assets, such as railways,electricity,council housing etc, for less than there true value.

am pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)

When was the last time the British electorate truely stood up and rebelled against the actions of their leaders? When was the last time a politician was called to account for their actions. That politicians can act with virtual impunity leads to where we are.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

grum – Member
So, those that support a referendum – you think it’s a good, reasonable, perfectly fine thing that the only information most people get about the EU are bullshit stories about straight cucumbers and Theresa May’s lies about asylum seekers and cats? That’s good enough information to make an informed decision on an important issue?

Its just dawned on me…….you guys are Daily Mail readers!

It’s not about approving of them, it’s about being sufficiently informed. If you’ve looked at all the info and decided you’re against membership of the EU, then that’s fine. But if you are basing your view on some half-remembered lies peddled by the tabloids then that’s not fine.

OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?

OK
So from that, you disagree with the current criteria for being eligible to vote?

No not really, I was probably being hyperbolic (if that’s a word 🙂 ) earlier – I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can’t deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.

They often get made to print corrections, but they are always a tiny article on page 97 where the original story was a front page headline, so the damage is done.

I think people should get much more political and critical thinking education, and the newspapers should be regulated properly so they can’t deliberately and consistently present pernicious untruths to millions of people.

OK……when I asked whether you guys had read any Orwell I was being a bit of rhetorical ponce. But seriously, do you know how scary this kind of language is? Did you pay attention to ANYTHING that happened in the 20th Century?

What? Educating people in critical thinking is a bad thing? The much derided ‘Media Studies’ I believe actually teaches people to try and critically assess the media which we are saturated with – quite an important and useful thing you would think.

It would rather depend on which branch of critical thinking they were taught, wouldn’t it? I suspect you would only allow your ‘right’ way of thinking to be taught.

I suspect you would only allow your ‘right’ way of thinking to be taught.

Not at all – amazingly enough despite what you clearly think I don’t believe everything I read in The Guardian either. Sometimes it can be a little bit like a lefty Daily Mail – though it’s nowhere near as poor quality/malicious.

Isn’t the ultimate critical thinking being applied?

If the “political elite” is for it, and trying to resist the public being given the option, then it must, of its very nature, be good for “them”, and bad for “us” 😉

Just for a minute then I thought an STW thread might be reaching a concensus: that democracy involves every sane adult having a vote and being given the opportunity to decide major issues. And that everyone should be taught the skills needed to make good use of that vote and the responsibilities that go with it before they reach voting age.

Just for a minute, now I’m not so sure. 😉