Onzadog, trouble with using beer as an analogy is that people can do without beer. And the guy that was paying $59 dollars for the beer probably owned the pub….

Er, I’ve not mentioned my mortgage. I manage my finances very carefully thank you very much. My mortgage is large, but not unmanageable 🙂

No, I don’t drive an audi – I have a lovely Ford Mondeo (diesel too to be extra frugal).

Yes, yes I do know people on benefits. I have many friends who live in council houses for instance. They’re quite fond of reminding me what a mug I am for paying a mortgage and how well they manage making the council fit **** solar panels to their houses.

I hope I’ll always earn plenty and be able to provide for myself – it’s just a shame others don’t follow that example

They’re quite fond of reminding me what a mug I am for paying a mortgage and how well they manage making the council fit **** solar panels to their houses.

So why not just go on Benefits and get a council house then?

I’m struggling to see what your point is, here…

My point dear boy?

It’s been made more clearly by others on this thread. That the rich get bitched at for not paying enough to support the spongers.

I don’t want to live in a council flat. I enjoy owning my own place.

so you admit it, you are better off than the people at the bottom?

Here’s a thought to ponder. Would the rich be rich if it wasn’t for them exploiting the poor in one way or another?

If someone earning say, £50k, and is struggling to pay their mortgage, but is managing, is suddenly hit by an additional £3k in taxation (which is roughly what might happen). Then they might lose their home. Is that fair? No.

with 50 k income you have options like selling it and buying somewhere cheaper , smaller car, fewer holidays etc poorer people dont have these options they are homeless

It’s the benefit brigade that bug me. Why should they enjoy a nice house, with nice furniture and nice belongings when they’ve not worked for them?

you visit a lot of poor areas/houses dont you …why not just give up work seeing as their lot os so great?
Seriously go see how they actually live.

It’s been made more clearly by others on this thread. That the rich get bitched at for not paying enough to support the spongers.

Has it? I din’t realise the ‘rich’ were getting bitched at. I thought it was about cuts affecting the very poorest in our society, most severely.

Oh, and you having a Daily Mail style whinge about how life is so unfair…

So, what do you do then?

That the rich get bitched at for not paying enough to support the spongers.

You really do need to work on your conscience rathe rthan your wallet. As you note you dont want to sawp places with them so you should feel pity not contempt
EDIT: Easy elf he may have to give up his verty comfortable life for just a comfortable one…imagine no audi for him just a Volvo …think about it eh will you…lets have a whip round for the poor fella

As I’ve said, I pay more tax each year than the average household income – have done for years.

And I get moaned at. Moaned at for suggesting I do / I’ve done my bit.

Quite why that makes me wrong and you self-righteous does evade me……

I can see both sides here as someone who seems to have (at the moment) missed out on the cuts and it does make very interesting reading. I would be aggrieved if the cuts were purely aimed at my socio-economic group. For the mid earners, why should they lose a high proportion of their expendible income when those of lower income get to continue as they are without giving back, and it would make less of a hole in richer people’s pockets. For low income groups they don’t have much to give away anyway so any cut will adversely affect their lifestyle. High earners have the funds to employ accountants to dodge it all anyway. I am not sure there is a right answer however there are more lower income earners and they will therefore be able to shout louder.

Yeah you’re right. Although apparently he only drives a Mondeo.

Actually, I don’t think I can have any sympathy for him really. I mean, if all he drives is a Mondeo, then it shows he’s not really working hard enough to better himself, and therefore doesn’t deserve any respect at all!

And I get moaned at. Moaned at for suggesting I do / I’ve done my bit.

You’re not getting moaned at for that. Dunno where you get that idea from. You obviously din’t pay enough attention at school, if you think that’s the case…

I have great pity for DrRSwank, he lives in Milton Keynes. He deserves every penny he gets.

said by someone cleverer than me

Yeah, Karl Marx, so you shouldn’t be too ashamed.

It sounds to me like our man swank does not object to paying taxes but rather the way in which they are distributed which I for one actually agree with. If I knew that every penny of my taxes were actually being redistributed effectively then I would not even raise an eyebrow. I am also disinclined to believe that all of the scrotes who live their whole lives on benefits have a nice life and nice things, unless cheap sportswear and sky tv count as nice things.

What I do object to though is my hard earned cash being used by the government to:

Wage illegal wars – effectively lowering the quality of life of a whole bunch of folk much poorer than anything the UK has to offer
Run profoundly inefficient centralised departments – Suddenly somehow they have decided they can save £6,000,000,000 in Whitehall!
Implement ludicrous policies and systems (see ID cards, criminalisation of drug users… etc)
Line the pockets of their cronies though the PFI and countless other quangos, comittees, procurement departments etc.
Bored now…

I know you guys seem to pounce on anyone that expresses dissatisfaction with the tax system and their contribution to it but do you never question the efficacy and fairness of the current implementation?

there are more lower income earners and they will therefore be able to shout louder

Not even slightly true as they do not have the means to broadcast their annoyance as well as the very rich.

tim = the thing is that clearly is not the case. top earners will lose less than 1% of income, lowest over 1% of income. It will hit the poorest most

Institute of fiscal studies report.

£50 000 and struggling? You make me want to puke.

If someone earns 50k a year and is struggling to pay their mortgage then they are a **** idiot.

Glad to see we’re not getting all personal, insulting and judgmental, oh wait a minute…..

I’m not going to try and justify peoples higher incomes, I think Onzadog’s and Zulu-elevens posts do that more eloquently than I can.

You need a large dose of reality.

A little ironic coming from TJ really as in a governed capitalist society some people will always earn a lot more than others and they will often pay for much of the state through their taxes. It’s how the system works, it would be nice if those people who are not required to contribute as much at least accepted that they to are in some respects, lucky in that they live in a country like ours with a welfare state. You may not like it but that’s the way it is and with the current crop of politicians it’s not likely to change much. If you want a better standard of living work harder, get better qualified, improve your attitude, be lucky, learn to do something other people can’t or won’t. Just stop sitting around whinging that others have more than you do waiting for some utopian state to redistribute the wealth. Whether that’s right or wrong is pretty irrelevant, it’s a reality.

Note the use of the word earn above, it’s the same argument in reverse which is often touted on here about people on low incomes, yes there are some who are feckless idiots and many who are there through no fault of their own, similarly there are some on high wages that have done nothing to deserve them however the majority will have worked very hard doing jobs that many others are incapable of doing to earn that money, but don’t let your lack of experience of being in this position stop you from judging people you have little knowledge of. Ironically many people on higher incomes will actually have some experience of living on very low incomes either as a student, through ill health, bad luck or redundancy (5 times in the case of my wife and I). One key difference is that often these people will work hard to get back to being in a position of earning a good living. Ironically the more qualified and the more senior your previous role the harder it is to get back into work, many employers will see you as over qualified, again I’m speakign from personal experience. Each time I’ve been made redundant I’ve taken any work offered and worked my way back up again.

One final point which I admit I don’t ave figures for (heard it on radio 4 news), people in the bottom 10% income bracket are often transitory and don’t spend that long in that situation, they are often students or people who have been made redundant and don’t get much state aid. Many people who are entilted to and claim their benefits are actually higher up the income scale.

Torminalis – strikes such as in France are a pretty good way. Would anyone be bothered if investment bankers went on strike??

TJ – I have not said that any particular group has been targeted as I am too busy changing nappies to have had a chance to read up fully on it. My point was about feeling aggrieved at the cuts/tax increases

satumpy

The dose of reality he and perhaps you need is the reality of living on benefits.

Your last statement is utter pish. Living on benefits you are the very poor and this is not usually transitory

I personally am a professional with enough income. I don’t whinge about paying taxes

strikes such as in France are a pretty good way

We had fuel strikes when unleaded reached £1 per litre. Then they made them illegal. I think the UK has so little faith in their ability to influence that they have all but given up. When they do go off proper though it will be a sight to behold. I hope.

TJ – your figures are very wrong. For high earners they’ve recently scrapped the tax free allowance. And, not only that, but that part of your salary is now taxed at 40%!

That knocks an instant 3.5k off most high earners salaries. That is more than 1% of the cut off for this change (100k).

The cuts are hitting the wealthy/well off/ whatever you want to call them harder.

Add in the other cuts being proposed / implemented and people on good salaries will be asked to fork out a lot more to keep this country from going under.

I don’t mind paying tax! I just get annoyed when the rich are always criticised – as per the original cartoon at the start of this thread.

I know you guys seem to pounce on anyone that expresses dissatisfaction with the tax system and their contribution to it but do you never question the efficacy and fairness of the current implementation?

I don’t think that’s the case. Rswank is getting flak because he seems to have the idea that ‘scroungers’ are living the life of riley, when he’s working every hour God sends to scrape by.

Strikes me as a very ignorant and narrow-minded attitude to have.

I live on a pretty poor council estate. The vast majority of people here work very hard, yet not in professions that are particularly financially rewarding. Some of them rely on benefits to get by. I don’t see anyone living in luxury, round here. Rswank is more than welcome to come and see the reality of life round here, any time.

Some of the worst scamming conniving deceitful scum* round here work in this place down the road:

*The vast majority however are decent hard working folk.

Tim = the point is that the less money you have the bigger % of income you will lose. Its a series of regressive meansers hitting the poorest hardest.

I know you guys seem to pounce on anyone that expresses dissatisfaction with the tax system

A goo dpost and I dont htink anyone is claiminmg that state is always correct and does everything superbly well. It is interesting to see that to become rich you tend to need to be greedy and once there you tend to resent not keeping all of your wealth…not sure what that means or why that is. Even super rich peolpe with more money than they could ever spend seem to still want more of it to keep for themselves.
Re “dole scroungers” it can be a reasonable point depending on how it is made – BUT , and it is a big but, unless we have full employment what work do you expect these people to do?

RSwank – thats not what the institute of fiscal studies says and they are the experts. What is your source?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/21/ifs-spending-review-cuts-poor-hit-hardest

The cuts are hitting the wealthy/well off/ whatever you want to call them harder

EVIDENCE?
See IFS report to counter your view based on a sample of YOU

TJ – my source is the Inland Revenue and the nice letters they send me…..

TJ

I’m not going to argue with you, the last statement wasn’t mine, I’m sorry I can’t provide figures and references to back it up but it seemed pretty credible to me in the context I heard it.

I’ve also pointed out in previous threads that I have lived on a very low income several times in the past.

As I stated above the reality is our system is as it is, it’s not going to change much, it’s better than many others if you have no means of supporting yourselves and it isn’t as highly taxing on the more wealthy as some.

DO you dispute though that many (not all) on higher incomes are in that position through hard work, skills and commitment and may actually as a result of this deserve to live a better life or do you buy in to this conspiracy theory drivel?

Would the rich be rich if it wasn’t for them exploiting the poor in one way or another?

Some of the worst scamming conniving deceitful scum* round here work in this place down the road:

I well believe it, along with their buddies who work here…

perhaps you should fwd them to the IFS and let them correct the report ?
You are not indicative of millions of people

here it is only two pages long and has graphs

Junkyard – that was for the budget not the CSR.

DO you dispute though that many (not all) on higher incomes are in that position through hard work, skills and commitment and may actually as a result of this deserve to live a better life or do you buy in to this conspiracy theory drivel?

Do you consider this to be a leading question?
That really is a funny thing to write Even the daily mail does better in terms of impartiality. Its friday go hva e abeer and relax before you have a coronary

Can you give me examples of people who mad emoney without exploiting the poor – paying them less in wages than they earn for their labour? You do understand how capitalism works dont you?

Yes as mentioned, a very poignant cartoon MrNutt.

This morning I was down the caff having my breakfast when I read this letter in the Guardian :

It’s all much clearer now. We aren’t in this mess because of the greed and incompetence of the bankers, the tax dodgers, PFI, funding foreign wars, and buying Trident; it’s all the fault of the old lady down the road getting a bit of cash in hand to top up her dole, and those aspirant idiots paying too much for a mortgage.

Still, we’ll all be so much better off once those town-hall scroungers are all put on the dole, and we chuck people out of their council houses. Apologies for writing this in crayon, but they won’t let us have anything sharp in here.

Mark Piggott

I literally choked on my breakfast when I read : “Apologies for writing this in crayon, but they won’t let us have anything sharp in here” 😀

It provided a much needed chuckle during an otherwise depressing review of the latest news concerning the Bullingdon Boys rampage and onslaught on the old, the sick, the unemployed, the poor, the young, all those waiting for affordable housing, and I guess everyone not earning mega-salaries……..only the bankers where smiling with good cause this morning.

The upper-class toffs drunk with power might be having fun now they can do so much more than just set fire to tramps, but we can still have a chuckle eh ?

Junkyard – that was for the budget not the CSR.

😳
Sorry
I will go and calm down too

Lot of very revealing language used in this thread. For anyone not of an angry and/or left wing disposition it’s normally best to step away from any political thread on stw as you just get shouted down by the same bitter voices.

Yeah, Karl Marx, so you shouldn’t be too ashamed.

I know. But it would have been like throwing in a Molotov* Cocktail to invoke his name…. 😉

I am inclined to agree that a non-holisitc approach to this issue is unlikely to reveal much other than personal prejudice. There are wider factors at work here.

For high earners they’ve recently scrapped the tax free allowance. And, not only that, but that part of your salary is now taxed at 40%!

DrRSwank

No quite right, and I’d worry if that’s the advice your accountant is giving you. Any lost personal allowance is taxed at 20%.

Given that you are concerned about this, it means your annual income is at least £100,000. On an income of £100k, you get to keep just over £65,000. Or just under £12,500 a month. That’s AFTER tax.

You’re entitled to be concerned that the taxes you pay are being properly allocated, of course.

But FFS, stop whinging about your tax bill and how badly affected you’ll be from the cuts.

*And we all know which bunch he was involved with….

**** me peoples maths skills are bad on here.

100k does not equate to 65k after tax and NI

And 65k does not equate to 12.5k per month.

This is why the country is in a mess! Do you work for the Treasury?

On an income of £100k, you get to keep just over £65,000. Or just under £12,500 a month. That’s AFTER tax.

You obviously learned from the Gordon Brown school of economics.

Edit: Beaten to it.

yes fair point brown is to balme not the bankers well spotted – he caused the american sub prime market to collapse and the subsequent fallout that affected all countries world wide – that is not even a credible opinion it is just wrong.

As I’ve said, I pay more tax each year than the average household income – have done for years.

And I get moaned at. Moaned at for suggesting I do / I’ve done my bit.

Quite why that makes me wrong and you self-righteous does evade me……

I think you are getting moaned at because instead of being satisfied at being fairly well off in one of the richest countries in the world, all you can do is whine about how you aren’t even richer.