Hora - the good thing about our rides is that we are/were first mates with many attendees. That and everyoneno knows I finish 'work' at 6pm. We do the rides cause we funny enough like riding bikes. Our usual crowd come because they do too .nothing to do with being customers who want to 'belong'. You should come.sometime on the back of tj's clown bike. 
Bike Forum
[closed]
the demise of decent customers (lbs content)
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Posted 1 year ago #
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Then I fail to see how you are 'service matching' in that instance...
That is all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Because I don't want your business and I don't care if you buy on-line. There are plenty of other people who are paying for my villa, boat and Ferraris. So, you get the hump and come on STW spreading the word, so what? I lose 5% of potentially loss making business. I don't fuckingcare. You're not important. You are the reason that internet stores saw an opening, and there are other customers that keep Halfords alive.
You're a high maintenance-low profit customer.
Service matching was just a term to say you couldn't have a bike shop experience at internet shop prices. It's not difficult to work out, but you already knew that.Posted 1 year ago # -
I lose 5% of potentially loss making business.
Well if it was loss making it would clearly not be worth doing. However for what we're talking about it's not, and you know it. Hence whilst you might not be making the margin you'd like you're still making money, and your overheads aren't any less for turning away business, so you're effectively throwing away money.How does your face feel about the bloody hole where your nose used to be?
You're a high maintenance-low profit customer.
Well personally I'm not particularly high maintenance. I don't need much in the way of advice from my LBS. I very, very rarely need their workshop services, and when I do because they have an unusual tool it's not worth me buying I'm happy to pay the going rate. I never try stuff on or ask advice before buying online. If they don't want my business when I want to buy stuff I could get cheaper online and know exactly what I want then that's their problem - high value stuff I've bought through the LBS I've invariably paid more for and waited longer for than if I'd bought online, so I don't see why I should feel guilty about asking for a discount which didn't even bring them down to online prices. 20% profit on a £500 item (which is no more hassle for them to order than a £100 item) is rather better than 30% or 40% of nothing don't you think? The big question is why on earth did I pay more? Because I see more value in giving my LBS a bit of profit than some faceless online shop - I'm not ripping myself off in order to do so though.Posted 1 year ago # -
Show me where I said I'd offer worse service, you do understand the concept of "service match" don't you?
This bit here..
I still stand by what I said about making you wait, if you push me to drop my prices, I'll make you wait for collection regardless of whether it's in stock or not.
Where you said you'd give a customer worse service if they dared ask for a price match.
Asking if a shop can price match isn't a snub, its offering them the chance to compete for business, and letting them argue their side and decide if its worth it for them or not. Surely its better to at least try to use the LBS instead of just going straight online?
I think its easy for everyone to have this argument on the internet though, what we'd do if it was actually our living on the line would be quite different I suspect. I certainly can't imagine many shop owners turning down any kind business just because they'd make less profit on it. You could have a 5000% profit margin, but 5000% of **** all, is **** all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
BTW I once negotiated a 30% discount at my LBS on a very expensive frame - from their attitude to the sale I have to assume the margin on RRP was ridiculous.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've been buying bikes, bits and service from my LBS since I started riding 15yrs ago. As I became more mechanically savvy the service bit dropped off somewhat but if I don't have the tool, I'll ask to borrow it from them(whilst waving a packet of chocolate digestives in front of the staff!!) Since I only live 10mins away and they know I'll get it back to them fairly quickly there's no problem. They gave my idiot son a holiday job last summer and turned him into a competent mechanic and now we both get 'staff discount'! Unless it's something they can't access, I rarely buy online anymore. I sold a couple of bikes, earlier this year, that had to be couriered - I asked the LBS for boxes, which they gave me but then suggested I use their courier, at buisness rates, for overnight, tracked delivery - absolute bloody stars, ah tell thee!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hora - the good thing about our rides is that we are/were first mates with many attendees. That and everyoneno knows I finish 'work' at 6pm. We do the rides cause we funny enough like riding bikes. Our usual crowd come because they do too .nothing to do with being customers who want to 'belong'. You should come.sometime on the back of tj's clown bike.
Curious. Do your good friends and trusted customers feel guilty if they turn up with forks, a new frame or bike to one of these rides?
I'm not saying you do this but I imagine in some shops/shop rides there will be a question 'oh nice bike! You should have asked us as we can get a good deal on x brand'...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well personally I'm not particularly high maintenance.OK, you're not, but the other guy was!
It's a case by case descicion. Where you said you'd give a customer worse service if they dared ask for a price match.
You really have missed the point haven't you, it wasn't a dare, don't introduce ideas that don't exist and I wasn't offering a worse service. Re-read to find the answers.Asking if a shop can price match isn't a snub, its offering them the chance to compete for business, and letting them argue their side and decide if its worth it for them or not.
And the bike shop posting the goods to you is equally fair. And the bike shop has the right to turn down the business if they don't want it. You're all making the mistake of thinking that all customers are like you and that you are particularly special. Wake up! You're not. There are less informed, more profitable customers out there, and these are the people I want. Someone mentioned fleecing commuters, why is it fleecing? If they are happy to pay €10,00 to have an innertube fitted then this is the same market economy working which has given you the choice of internet or lbs. You can not use it to your advantage in one arguement and against me in the same breath.
All customer are different and have different demands, as you (second person plural) can see from this thread, some understand my POV and would be welcome in my (theoretical) shop, some require a little more work and depending on the economic climate may/may not be welcome, the third group have spent a lot of time asking me questions trying to disassemble my arguement, as you're wasting my time I'll look at the first group for custom. You are making the assumption that you are special and that I need your money.
You could have a 5000% profit margin, but 5000% of **** all, is **** all.
And 0% on 5trillion €uros is?
I think its easy for everyone to have this argument on the internet though, what we'd do if it was actually our living on the line would be quite different I suspect.
Actually untrue, I have had high maintenance customers who thought they had a right to drive down prices, when all things were equal I was prepared to play. The moment they became a cost (time/money/energy), they were dropped for more profitable customers, they can waste the competition's time.
Here's alink for the hard of reading.
A couple of true anecdotes. (OK, they might not be 100%true!)
I was sat in my local Chinese restaurant last week, quite good for Madrid, but a bit expensive. I happened to see the takeaway prices which were 10% cheaper. I asked for this discount and they told me to **** off! Cheecky bastids.
After that we went to a bar, you know one of those flashy city centre bars, for a couple of drinks. 'Kinnel, 5,00€ for a beer, I can get a beer for 2,00€ in my local village bar, so I asked for discount. Same brand of beer and everything and I drink loads in my local bar, so surely I have a right to discount. As I sat on the pavement nursing a bruised ar5e, it was my turn to tell the doorman to **** off! Ha ha! Shan't be going back there.
Also last week, I had a computer problem, so I went into a shop for help. They wanted 25,00€ per hour for the repair, I waved some Jaffa Cakes under their noses and they fixed it for free. Result!
Where else do you think it's acceptable to ask for discount? Tesco? The petrol station? Currys?
I know in some industries it's acceptable and others not. The customer has a choice and the shop has a choice.Posted 1 year ago # -
Wow! That was a long one!
Best go for a lie down...
Posted 1 year ago # -
The trouble is that - aside from Elfinsafety's tendency to rub himself against the gussets of high end apparel and then leave without buying - virtually all the anti-LBS comments here and on other threads are about poor or incompetent service, long waits and poor communication delivered by LBSs in face-to-face contacts, which is not really addressed by the argument that has developed in the last page or so.
I do feel for people like TBC who obviously offer a great service, but people like Don Simon are missing the point - many LBSs have yet to even start delivering basic decent no-nonsense service, yet they will not go out of business because they have a ready-made flock of poorly informed punters they can sell to.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So they are apparently providing a good service to the flocks, and an unacceptable service to a discerning customer like you. Where's the problem?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'd happily use my LBS, but the service is hugely slow. Turn up to buy a commuter light and it takes an age to get served; they're friendly, but the shop side is poor.
Servicing has to be booked in a previous lifetime, and is not what I'd call fantastic even then.
Clothing is a limited line; if there's something I like, and it's in my size, I'm happy to buy it, as the prices are perfectly acceptable. Not Wiggle, but the difference isn't worth worrying over.
The real problem for me comes with specialist kit and the servicing of it. The only option for servicing a fork is to send it off, but I can do this anyway. Servicing a Rohloff completely blew their minds, but, again, I did it myself. Getting their advice over whether to go for Hope Moto V2 on the Alps bike only elicited the suching of teeth and the "well, the Mono Minis are good, so I suppose the Motos will be as well." After all of this, the best price they could do for a full set of brakes was £120 more than Merlin.
I'm a 'sling it at the shop and let them sort it' kind of guy, so if there were a shop that could do all of what I wanted (build a bike, get parts the next day at decent prices, service a fork) I'd be happy to use them. After 20 years of riding offroad bikes, I'm yet to come across such a shop.
Posted 1 year ago # -
There's obviously a broad spectrum of LBS quality out there, I'd guess the ones most STW people would consider poor are focused a lot around the commuting market so they churn out cheap basic stuff and the shop knowledge and workshop experience is in that area as well. Whereas another LBS might be focused on high end road bikes which for someone like me is heaven (and I happen to have such an LBS although they're all Campag fanboys and refer to the alternative as Shitmano :p ) but I could see a commuter walking in there might think they're a bit snobbish etc. (whereas in fact they just get no pleasure dealing with commuting stuff but still likely do as it's where the profits will come from).
The whole having to deal with commuters and kids bikes is the main reason I'd never even consider opening an LBS, I'm sure I'd get bored of it very quickly.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Posted 1 year ago # -
OK, you're not, but the other guy was! It's a case by case descicion.
OK......I'm about as low maintenance as they come.
Me; (having travelled to the store) can i have a long cage m770 rear mech please?
Donald; Yes, it'll bemyyour pleasure
Me; what's your best price?
Donald; I'm afraid RRP is the best I can do. My service level has been far too high (I've used energy by opening my mouth) as you're really high maintenance.
Me; ?????
my villa, boat and Ferraris
LOL
Seriously, you're not doing the LBS owners any favours on here. It's not a priviledge to use a LBS and this is a massively competitive industry. To say that MTBers aren't welcome as they're too savvy is absurd. The above conversation is pretty much how it goes, we know exactly what we want, we do not need to be talked or sold to for an hour and hence the transactions are quick. While I buy all of my small stuff (mechs, clothes, chains etc) from my LBS, if it costs me £50 more on a set of wheels, it's a no brainer. I work hard for my money. This thread has made me want to buy more online just in case I inadvertantly waste some precious bike shop time.Posted 1 year ago # -
TBH, All I want from a good LBS is for it to be reasonably priced (not selling stuff above RRP), to offer a decent level of service (not have to wait 2 weeks to replace a couple of spokes and re-true a wheel) and not to treat me like a moron (like being told that my 2004 Stumpy couldn't be a 2004 as they didn't make them in that colour in that year - even though I bought it and have owned it from new in 2004 and still have the 2004 catalogue with it in).
As you can tell from the bracketed comments, am still to find what I consider to be a 'good' LBS. If I could find one, I'd keep going back!Posted 1 year ago # -
My nearest LBS is around 5 miles away. The one I use is around 25 miles away. This is due to poor service experienced once from the mechanics there who were trying it on by exploiting my perceived inexperience to make me pay for things which had not worn out.
I removed the bike and got a "second opinion" from About Bikes near Evesham who quoted me for the work I wanted doing at a fair price and when I questioned them about the "worn" parts - said they were all fine.
This was a few years ago now and I've never been back to the other shop.
Yes, it's inconvenient to drive the 50 mile round trip and even more so if I need to leave the bike there for work, but at least I'm confident I won't be ripped off. Sadly, the distance involved means I buy more online and have taught myself to do some of the work but this is no bad thing as I can at least bodge more stuff now when I get in trouble out on a ride.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Servicing a Rohloff completely blew their minds, but, again, I did it myself.
if you mean changing the oil, that's piss easy. Apart from replacing the cables what else can you do ?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've stopped using my LBS and now use a very good mobile bike mechanic (also now a good mate) - he comes out with a fully equipped van, sorts/replaces stuff properly and charges me a very reasonable rate.
While my LBS has been okay, they have made too many mistakes in the past - some rather costly.
I also have no problem paying more if needed - I can source parts myself and get the mechanic to fit them or he can get hold of stuff, often cheaply.
While we all want to save money, those we buy off have to earn a living too - many seem to forget that.
I do buy on-line if/when needed - it's just handier than having to park, go to my LBS and come back again. Maybe "wrong" but hey ho, the World is about choices.
Posted 1 year ago # -
To say that MTBers aren't welcome as they're too savvy is absurd.
You're distorting my words to fit in your own argument.Who the fvck is Donald? A duck?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Who the fvck is Donald? A duck?
reading between the lines, that would be *you* donald
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ah! An easy mistake to make.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So many folk miss the point. The type of customer that wants XTR off the shelf, at discount, fitted for free is not a customer a bike shop wants or needs. No profit in them
A shop needs to make a profit. Its not a charity £30 a billable hour is the minimum to make any profit on servicing. £40+ gives a decent profit. A decent shop will give yo a fixed price = which needs to take into account the times that the job goes wrong and takes longer. Your quick index of the gears that ends up with full cable replacement, dropout alignment etc etc
They simply cannot compete on price with the large internet operations - overheads are higher. Service levels are higher ( you get to see the bits before you buy at a minimum) Its not comparing like with like. Although infact most LBS I use come close on service parts)
Those who complain about waiting times for the workshop - why is there a wait? Workshop full? clearly plenty of people are prepared to pay for a service and why should you get to skip the queue.
Some folks idea of the reality of running a shop is laughable.
On the whole STWers are not the target market anyway - too little profit in them
Posted 1 year ago # -
Such heresy TJ, how dare you?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I love the idea that there's nothing wrong with the shops, it's just us :o)
Posted 1 year ago # -
SFB - there are some good shops and some poor ones. However some STwers idea of what a bike shop should do is laughable.
Posted 1 year ago # -
OP here...
i thought id re-post as its seems to have divided a few...some facts about what happens at a normal lbs1- i only get next day delivery from one company.hope(because were a hope tech centre) i deal with around 40 active accounts/suppliers..everyone else takes 2-3 days(maybe cos were in scotland)
2- margins on all kit varies between 20-50%...ironically a $3500 frame depending on the supplier has the least margin...all the cheap consumable stuff that most of you wouldnt touch has the highest margin
3- a brake/gear cable of the stainless steel variety rrp is $3.99..its branded and we never have them fail(check the biggest bike purchaser in the uk what they charge,halfords, as theyre dearer and its not a branded item)
4- i, like mark at the tbc has probably not spent a huge amount of time worrying if his mates have been buying bike kit elsewhere...i accepted this a long time ago.but if they do want to get something ill do them the best deal i can(cos were mates)
5- theyres only one guy in scotland i know of who has taken a rohloff apart...i seem to remember it took him a while,like 2 days.id never do it and would happyily send it off to the supplier to fix(not cost affective or practical to fix)anyway i thought they never went wrong?
6- forks/shox we also send away as i dont have the tooling,the service is very good from the sorters.we offer the free service of taking the forks off and putting them back on...again i cant recall anyone else in scotland who does servicing in house on forks...we do however offer servicing on brakes(any) bikes,hubs,wheel building...
7- the large internet firms are getting bigger,now have supply companies and probably do more business than the majority of our suppliers(except maybe madison)theyre not going anywhere....but is theyre service that good? if i thought i couldnt compete on service i may have jacked it in a while ago...
ive been at this for over 17 years now and love the trade....i have a great rapport with all the reps i deal with,ditto with a lot of regular customers..in the last year the shop has got a real community feel about it with folk just hanging out and drinking coffe/tea,chatting bikes.sometinmes they buy something somtimes they dont..but they'll always think about us when they are in the market! if this is grooming then im a groomer!
the most successful lbs in my view are in the states and this is what they do to get more people to engage with them...it seems to work...im not caring about the negativity on here cos im confident i do a good job and theyres as much passion here for the lowly lbs as decriers...chris
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you enter a shop with parts you have bought online and expect them to fit them, be prepared to be told to see your online seller for fitting and warranty help.
If a shop told me this they would not get my custom again. What on earth is wrong with buying parts online and asking your LBS to fit them? They're getting the profit margin out of the labour, which I suspect is more than the profit on some odd part that I went to the trouble of sourcing myself.
LBS shops will get my custom is I want to buy a new bike. LBS shops will get my custom for workshop jobs I can't/don't want to do. LBS shops will get my custom if I happen to be in there and see something nice and shiny. LBS shops will get my custom buying stuff I need to try on (shoes, helmets, clothes etc). However if I know the part I need and I can order it for delivery to me without having to get in the car/on the bike then I go on the internet. Simple.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TBH I've had cracking service from Wiggle and other internet retailers.
Which shop would take a pair of trail running shoes back that had been worn 10+ times because if a fit issue that wouldn't go away?
Wiggle did and for that reason, they are my first port of internet call for most items.
But yes, the LBS will always have it's place. They just need to adapt to, not fight, the evolution of the bike industry.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So many folk miss the point. The type of customer that wants XTR off the shelf, at discount, fitted for free is not a customer a bike shop wants or needs. No profit in them
That's really missing the point. Nobody expects free fitting. A discount is nice (note; NOT price-matching), but again not expected if the kit is urgently required.
If your name isn't Donald, why else would you call yourself don? It's a widely used name is it not?Posted 1 year ago # -
hora
I saw some of the salaries offered for bike shop managers. Now considering they'll be selling kit into the thousands paying a manager peanuts is ridiculous. I remember speaking to one ex-Manager who told me about the hours he was expected to work for 25k a year. **** that.
I doubt bikeshop staff get much more than the basic/minimum salary either.
Not much incentive yet they are expected to show 'love for their hobbie' (with one day off in the week to ride.
People should bear this in mind every single time they decide to post something slating a shop or it's staff.
We expect bike shop staff to work for pennies, but be experts in their field, or at least more skilled and knowledgeable than a given enthusiast who spends all of his waking day researching their hobby and most of his free time indulging in said hobby/obsession. And ironically they probably get little or no time to fart about on the internet or indeed ride bikes.
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you enter a shop with parts you have bought online and expect them to fit them, be prepared to be told to see your online seller for fitting and warranty help.
If a shop told me this they would not get my custom again. What on earth is wrong with buying parts online and asking your LBS to fit them? They're getting the profit margin out of the labour, which I suspect is more than the profit on some odd part that I went to the trouble of sourcing myself.
Absolutely - would they refuse to fit it if it were a present from someone, a second hand item, something you'd had off another bike? At the end of the day, if they want to absorb some or all workshop charges when doing a supply / fit, that's their prerogative - that cost is covered somewhere though, either through their charges for other jobs (fit only) or in the mark up on the products they sell.
Posted 1 year ago # -
[quote] forks/shox we also send away as i dont have the tooling,the service is very good from the sorters.we offer the free service of taking the forks off and putting them back on...again i cant recall anyone else in scotland who does servicing in house on forks..."
Hey chris/joe - you don't need a great deal of kit, we got a talas needle and everyfink here and send only the truly gubbed set of Pikes back to Fishers for instance. Fox done here all in a day turn around.
You should do it. Call James here tomorrow if you want any pointers.Hora - i can only think of two people in our group of regulars that bought a bike off us. One was a Yeti and the other a Spicy. I actually like that the guys have other kit and use other shops - they freely admit they use CRC etc in fact i send them there sometimes when i know i cant.
There is such a cool mix of bikes and kit out on the rides it gives you a chance to develop your knowledge of stuff other than what you sell. This is a good thing - plus ultimately we are a retail business and the fact is we have to stay sharp to compete for peoples limited spend. We are in competition with people selling plasmas and kitchens and holidays and other life stuff - that's what we concentrate on rather than churning out product for what is for us an unsustainable margin we choose to sell products that work for us and allow us to run a business.
One thing from previous page - do people really sell above RRP? Apart from the odd innocent mistake and un-noticed supplier price re-alignment this doesn't really go on does it?
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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