people are always asking for the same things when new trails are being built and those things are all that I hate about trail centres

which people are being asked? obviously if you’re asked what you want in a trail centre it’s going to be features. Maybe cake and bike washes (hopefully trail builders are getting smart enough to avoid some of the worst gaffes of building – uphill jumps, no run in / run out, nadgery bits when you’re already sapped). There’s not really a massive variety of features in the trailbuilders vocabulary, and a mixed ability trail will have size constraints hence manmade trails without a strong underlying geography can’t help but become somewhat identikit.

Nobody is going to survey you on what you want in a natural trail, it’s probably not even a good idea directly linking a natural trail to a trail centre

at no expense to themselves

Not that old chestnut again. We did this to death on Bikeradar a while back.

where do you think the money for trails comes from? They don’t come for free…

where do you think the money for trails comes from? They don’t come for free…

Nor are they paid for by mountain bikers.
£2000 on a bike.
£100 for specs.
£100 for shoes.
£70 for a helmet.
£50 for a Camelbak.
etc, etc, etc.

People who use trail centres don’t pay for them at the point of use.

Oh stop the whining.

I’m in Bavaria ATM and reading a lovely book called MountainbikeTouren. It breaks down each of the 40 recommended Bavarian routes into amounts of tarmac, fire-road and singletrack.

If I add up all the singletrack in the entire book/region, it adds-up to less “natural” singletrack (I’m guessing slightly) than on my local Mendip hills.

There is nothing to be depressed and whiney about!

thegeneralist – Member

where do you think the money for trails comes from? They don’t come for free…

They pay for themselves, and more. Just not directly back to the operators is all.

Read the article today

Think it is a great read TBH.

Depressing? Why? Don’t ride trail centres if you don’t want to. The ‘natural’ (GavB is right) trails are still there.

The new ‘man made’ trails in Bristol are great addition to the Bristol riding. Think the article sums up pretty much exactly how I use them (without actually thinking about it before I read the piece) I ride them when the more natural stuff is basically a bog (less road riding & spin classes in the winter) and I use them to work on specific skills (my cornering is way better as a direct result).

In drier times I rarely touch them beyond linking. The natural trails see less wet weather traffic so are typically in better nick when they dry out.

Like wise when travelling to an unknown area I sometimes visit centres. Allows me a quick MTB fix if time is tight. If I have more time I may go exploring but that is not always an option.

My 2ps worth re this trail centre vs ROW riding…

If its bad weather or I am riding for a shorter time with the newbies / girlfriend etc – I enjoy a blast round say penmac / nant y arian and the associated nice cafes etc – but ‘proper’ riding for me is a long all dayer in the brecons / lakes / mid wales with maybe a hut stop over – but then thats the stuff I like and I can read a map very well…however not everyone is the same…

For those not so inclined or confident being outdoors then a way marked trail centre is great – and as an aside it may help keep the type of chav rider who loves to drop litter on the trail off the real hills and in a confined spot and out of the way of other legitimate trail users who sometimes view us in a bad light.

I have had a few moans off walkers / mtn rescue types in the past questioning mtbers behaviour – as a group we need to adopt a better image – be more courteous and have less stupid behaviour and stop dropping litter… yet it is also the wannabe strava types chucking gel packets around which esp winds me up…

I do agree with the OP in a way – I dislike the perception amongst my younger friends that MTB is now just a thrash round a gravel track with some jumps on a Massive AM ( ‘all marketing’ Tm ) 160mm susser rather than actually riding in the hills and being adventurous…

However if mtb is going to become like big BMX with bigger wheels than thats down to the rider to choose. I am all for choice – plus it keeps the hills quieter for me to enjoy !! Perhaps MTB should have another marketing niche – ‘GTCB’ gravel trail centre bike….. 🙂

Paul

I like to have the choice and trail centres do make a good all weather option
But I find it a little sad that for some a trail centre is the be all and end all of mtb

As for the money some spend that’s up to them and I will not often look down on somone who can afford a very nice bike even if they are just starting out. I might say hello in a cheerful
Way as I go by them on my old hardtail

Be careful what you wish for. Sometimes it might come true. 🙂

I do sometimes wonder if there’s a bit of ‘grass is greener on the other side’ with mountainbikers.
All complaining about the boring design of centres, then after watching too many films wanting to step up a level, but not really wanting to deal with the reality of tech riding. See the comments about overuse of chicken lines/trail widening/shortcuts etc.
Surely Stainburn would be over run with riders every day of the week if tech was what people really wanted.

Time after time on the forum people talk about the nirvana of ‘flowing singletrack’ (see all the complaints about lack of trail flow, braking bumps interrupting rapid progress etc) .
Well, to a degree, it seems to me that current trailcentre design is trying to cater for that desire. I couldn’t really give a shit about whether my trails flow, sure sometimes it’s nice to just be able to roll without worrying too much, but without a) the scenery, and b) having to put a bit of thought into what I’m doing, then mtb’ing can get pretty boring pretty quick for me.

I do wonder how many groups/individuals are now working in waymarked trail design around the island- Has there been some rationalisation and homogenisation?

It’s easy to get ‘flow’ at any trail centre: Don’t stop at every stile/gate!

I ride TC’s like the majority: a nasty weather alternative and good for when time is limited. My favourite trail of any type is the Addams Family section at CYB, hit that without stopping at any kind of speed and you’ll find out what TC’s can offer that will be very hard to find out in ‘nature’

If you despair at all the people who only ride TC’s, get chatting to them, maybe show them your local stuff if you get on with them. Variety is the spice of life.

OP isn’t actually getting into the TC vs PROW arguement. More the type of trail being built, to get numbers into the trail centre seems to be going in the berm/jump direction, over the tricky traversey direction of old.

, but suspect you are not the target demographic of those building trails,

Other thing woth remembering is not all trails are built by the same people. As Mubgboo says above somewhere, niggly trails are being built – Homebaked at Gisburn, Stainburn’s Norwood trail are totally un surfaced trails through the woods, not weather proof but not at all roller coastery.

But there’s two way of building trails, and then hybrid mixtures of the two.

Machine built. – Gets the job done, but by the nature of getting machine in there, will be wide, at least a bit motorwayish, and tend to be vulnerable to the weather.

Man [hand] made. – all but weather proof, rock armoured – no machines so can get in between trees and pay a fine level of attention to detail. But – Takes for bloody ever. Dependant on Volunteer numbers – no contractor is going to built trails like that, economically unviable.

The Hybrid tends to come (IME) when machine built trails degrade and get patched and repaired by hand, by Volunteers. this can allow for the best in both worlds… but is never the intention when designing a trail, just how it ends up

My own reason for disliking bermy jumpy roller coaster bits is unless there’s a very good maintenence program the surface gets shagged cos people ride into stuff too fast and panic break, create short cuts rather than make a corner etc.

OP isn’t actually getting into the TC vs PROW arguement. More the type of trail being built, to get numbers into the trail centre seems to be going in the berm/jump direction, over the tricky traversey direction of old.

That’s exactly my point. 🙂

Here’s the quote from the builder / designer in the mag that got me to post:

The market has started to all ask for the same things; pump tracks, jump parks, berms, skill areas, fall zones, massively overbuilt greens and blues for the family…

Those are all the things I have little interest in as a rider.

Did you know: GlenLivit (of exceptional trail juice fame) are just completing their new mountain bike trails. now that could make for a messy weekend. That area has natural trails in every possible direction as well as a trail centre. ironic really, given the thread above…

it’s about time that those south of the border campaigned their government to allow bikes the “right to roam” like the Scottish Countryside Act.

We are doing… but there’s these chaps in red socks and gaters, and they’re like the masons, they have people everywhere.

We are doing… but there’s these chaps in red socks and gaters, and they’re like the masons, they have people everywhere.

It’s a bizzare British trait that people will put more energy into campaigning against the rights of others than for rights for themselves. The redsocks are a case in point.

Can anyone show me an example of a concerted campaign by the Ramblers, or any other national organisation, to restrict access to mountain bikes?

The problem isn’t them, it’s opposition from individual landowners, and the fact that we’re terminally disorganised at a local and national level.

massively overbuilt greens and blues for the family…

As a dad of 2 who rides with the kids more often than not these days, those bits ar essential.

More variety at TC’s would be great, but when you’re catering for the masses you tend to generalise a bit too much sometimes.

Can anyone show me an example of a concerted campaign by the Ramblers, or any other national organisation, to restrict access to mountain bikes?

Ramblers have extablishged themselves (through being VERY well organised and articulate, and large) as being a go to on consultations over ‘shared use’ paths. That’s all that’s happened so far, individual footpaths being considered for upgrade. They consider them all unsuitlable unless they are many metres wide, this becomes received opinion, same as erosion and yobbishness from all mtbers that outwieghs the reality of a tiny minority. The latter arguably more by the individuals than the group. No there is not national campaign, because the mtbers have yet to come together with something for the to campaign against (we should, needs spearheading though). But this is way OT from the original post, I was just being half hearted/humourous etc (seriously though, they are everywhere, special hand shakes and everything.) 😉

As a dad of 2 who rides with the kids more often than not these days, those bits ar essential.

I’ve nowt against a good green or blue. Should be more of them IMO and they should be more than just loops of fire road. Gisburn has a great one, soon to be extended. The one at GT is a hoot as well. The new Gis one looks like it will be a lot of fun, like a massive pump track.

Hmm, their policy could be a bit more welcoming, I’ll give you that:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ramblers-shared-use-policy

But I still don’t understand the persecution complex that mountain bikers display whenever walkers are mentioned. I used to go riding with a guy for whom any windfall tree or bit of stick on the trail was evidence of “red socks” at work. Go along to your local access forum, meet these people and make your own mind up.

I would, but my local one is nowhere near as local. While maybe not actual members of RGB I meet Ramblers every day. Rude joyless souless people most of them. But always very clean boots, so not the people I meet when out on a bike, who tend to be lovely!