• This topic has 34 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by D0NK.
Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Thank you Shimano, one step closer to my perfect road bike.
  • Onzadog
    Free Member

    11 speed 105 and mechanical shifting, hydraulic levers have been announced. Surprised I couldn’t find any mention of them on here.

    iainc
    Full Member
    faustus
    Full Member

    Nice. The 105 levers are already very nice, and it’d be great to hook up to hydraulic discs. I’m thoroughly tired of mechanical discs on my road bike…

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    AlexSimon
    Full Member

    Missed this – nice!

    andytherocketeer
    Full Member

    I thought it was an april fool at first.
    Was just half contemplating an update to 105 10sp too, from 9sp Tiagra. Assume I can still use existing 105 hubs, or is it a new freehub?

    Interesting stuff.
    I’m looking at upgrading my cross bike sometime.
    I like the idea of hydraulic discs, but not the risk of smashing a £140 Di2 rear derailleur.
    Hydraulic discs and a £30 105 rear derailleur sounds an ideal combination for CX.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    It has rather knackered my next hypothetical bike build. Though thinking about it, my 105/BB7 mechanical disc CX bike is less faff and hassle than my hydro braked MTB

    kelvin
    Full Member

    And 11spd flat bar shifters…

    AlexSimon
    Full Member

    Yes, I wondered whether that was a sign that 11sp road and 11sp MTB were going to be compatible.
    Daft that it isn’t with 10sp – hopefully they’ve fixed that problem.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    oooh that’s interesting…

    Given 11 speed is now filtering down to 105 My mind is wandering onto what the XT/R 11 speed mech groups (and Di2) will be like

    You also can’t help wondering if Shimano are going to carry on trying to prevent cross compatibility between mechanical Road/MTB, 9/10/11 speed kit, its going to become increasingly tricky for them to keep finding pull ratios that work and still allow them to subdivide their compatibility further…

    …Was just half contemplating an update to 105, 10sp too, from 9sp Tiagra. Assume I can still use existing 105 hubs, or is it a new freehub?

    As far I understand it:

    Going from Shimano 9 to 10 speed on a road bike is a relative doddle, you can keep the same hubs, you can keep the same mechs, you just need new STI/Chain/Cassette and possibly rings (would you actually need a new chainset?) and you should be golden…

    Going to 11 speed means a new Rear hub (from 9 or 10 speed) as the Cassette is wider, new mechs and STI, as the cable pull is different, Probably new brake callipers as they’ve tweaked the cable pull on those too, Not sure about chainset spacing, but I expect they’ve done their damnedest to push you towards a new one, by which point you are a good long way towards a most of a new bike…

    Old Lennard Zinn has done lots of experiments with cross compatibility of different generation/manufacturer parts, lots of mixing 9/10/11 speed Shimano/Campy/SRAM there are some interesting “Bodges” possible, but most people probably like the idea of buying a guaranteed compatible system rather than fudging things….

    Like you I’m still on 9 speed using a mix of Tiagra and 105 stuff, 11 speed coming to 105 does make me start to wonder how long I can reasonably maintain my Luddite approach to drivetrains, I’ll probably migrate to 10 speed about the time they release DA-12 speed I expect.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Daft that it isn’t with 10sp – hopefully they’ve fixed that problem.

    I don’t think it was an accident or an oversight on Shimano’s part…

    whatnobeer
    Free Member

    Going to 11 speed means a new Rear hub (from 9 or 10 speed) as the Cassette is wider, new mechs and STI, as the cable pull is different,

    Good old Campag managed to keep the same hub when they went 11 speed, they just made the rings and chain narrower. Much better solution.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Still on 9 speed here…I really don’t see the point of 10/11 speed, and I (occasionally) compete!

    “improvements” for the sake of it IMO.

    Still if it makes you happy to spend your wedge on it….

    EDIT JESUS WEPT more grouppos with a change in chainring standard FFS!

    DezB
    Free Member

    Still on 9 speed here…I really don’t see the point of 10/11 speed, and I (occasionally) compete!

    But, but… “With it being 11-speed it brings many of the functions and features that you get with both Ultegra and Dura-Ace to a much wider range of riders.”

    😆
    I’ve noticed I hardly ever shift 1 gear on 10 spd.

    andytherocketeer
    Full Member

    was keeping everything 9sp for “compatibility”, so I can swap things between bikes if need be. but in reality between a 9sp Tiagra CX bike, and a 9sp XT hardtail, the only thing that’s intercompatible are my pile of spare chains, and the quicklinks for them.

    next MTB is almost certainly not going to be 9sp, and the current 9sp is going to need replacing eventually. maybe i’ll use up all the 9sp stuff on the cx bike, then buy a complete gruppo in a few years.

    change in brake cable pull? that’ll booger things up a bit, unless it improves the response of my tiagra road sti lever / mini-V brake combo.

    curiousyellow
    Free Member

    Hopefully old 10 speed 105 kit will fall in price for a short while in June when everyone starts to dump stock!

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Yes, I wondered whether that was a sign that 11sp road and 11sp MTB were going to be compatible.
    Daft that it isn’t with 10sp – hopefully they’ve fixed that problem.

    I doubt Shimano think its daft, not being able to use an old mech with a new shifter or Cassette means more sales for them, of course they didn’t quite twig this until they came to designing Dynasys, hence we were spoilt for years and people like me have resisted the spending money to go 10 speed for what seem to be minimal, functional gains.

    The funny thing IMO is that Shimano’s customers are almost always one step ahead of them, XTR 11 speed is apparently going to be available as in 1×11 flavour with an 11-40t Cassette, and what have half their customers already managed to cobble together with various 1×10 Zee and XT parts?

    Other than the extra sprocket, the option of leccy shifting and presumably some weight advantage why would anyone bother with it?

    TBH I only keep an interested eye on the swanky new kit as I know eventually I will probably end up owning it or something like it, once its become “Old technology”… My MTB didn’t get 9 speed until Dynasys was well established, My DH bike is still using 8 speed…

    And people joke about it all coming full circle and the manufacturers starting to flog the early adopters fewer cogs as if its a great “New” innovation, but Stranger things have happened

    AlexSimon
    Full Member

    I doubt Shimano think its daft, not being able to use an old mech with a new shifter or Cassette means more sales for them,

    Making 11sp not compatible with 10sp is fine and understandable.
    But a hard delineation between road and mountain makes no sense to me in the modern world of bikes with so much crossover.

    Having drop-bars with the new levers on and a 11-40t cassette would be great for many for example.

    fisha
    Free Member

    I agree that it now seems daft to not have the road and mtb systems merging in terms of cable pull. I think there are markets out there for a complete mix of components. Being able to mix and match front / rear systems gives users a much larger range of ratios where people can tailor to their needs.

    the heathen that I am at the moment has a road bike with a 53/39 front and an 32/11 rear cassette running an XTR rear mech. Works really really well. Its a 10spd setup with a 9spd rear mech. But it would be nice to have solutions from Shimano where you could just pick whatever component you needed, and know that they would all work together.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    a hard delineation between road and mountain makes no sense to me in the modern world of bikes with so much crossover.

    While I agree with you from a potential customers point of view, I can see how Shimano justify it commercially…

    And of course a separation of Road and MTB equipment compatibility, could create a third market niche for some more CX or Urban commuter specific groups (both growing markets), quite how they’d make that work I don’t know, 3 or 4 “Streams” of intentionally incompatible drivetrain groups? yet more cable pull ratios? Di2 only for some, with fixed firmware? who knows but commercially they need to prevent certain features from one market making their way over to the other as they are trying to keep their customers in tight little niches…

    I’d say CX wants the best of both worlds at the minute, Drop bar STIs that could drive a clutch mech and hydraulic discs? possibly a 1xN option (using N/W rings perhaps?)…

    TBH I expect to see SRAM leading the way (yet again) while shimano take about four years to play catch up…

    Shimano make their kit too damn robust for their own good, the shiny new stuff you bought from them might well be “superseded” within 24 months, but it will keep functioning for the next decade, especially if it can talk to newer stuff, so rather than turn out shite quality parts that fold within a couple of years their tactic is to try and block off the incremental upgrade route:

    If you want more sprockets, then you have to spend more money…
    I’m not so bothered about having more sprockets at the minute cheers, but I’d love them to do a 9 speed Shadow+ Mech (Never going to happen)…

    njee20
    Free Member

    EDIT JESUS WEPT more grouppos with a change in chainring standard FFS!

    Well it’s the same as Shimano have been using on Dura Ace 9000 and Ultegra 6900, which has the advantage that you can change between compact and standard rings on one set of cranks.

    But yes, it’s a proprietary standard. Not like rings wear out that quickly though!

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    Good old Campag managed to keep the same hub when they went 11 speed, they just made the rings and chain narrower. Much better solution.

    I think they did the same thing that Shimano is now doing, but a while ago (either between 8-9 or else 9-10)

    DezB – Member
    I’ve noticed I hardly ever shift 1 gear on 10 spd

    Yeh. I’m on 1×9 on my road bike currently. waiting for di2 to get cheap(er).
    With a mtb cassette on, the gaps between ratios seem about right for me on the road

    Mister-P
    Free Member

    Hopefully old 10 speed 105 kit will fall in price for a short while in June when everyone starts to dump stock!

    That has been happening for a while already

    Bike manufacturers have been aware of the new 105 group for a good while now. They have been shifting surplus stock long before the Shimano announcement.

    TiRed
    Full Member

    Dura Ace hubs are 9/10/11 speed compatible, which was the deciding factor for my new road wheels. Mavic are too. I shall remain 10 speed for wheel swapping, and continue to swap the 12-25 for the 12-28 when it gets really hilly. 11-23 10 speed is still my default for racing.

    I’m in no rush to add an extra cog. And the latest groupsets have got shifting back to the exposed cables of yore.

    julians
    Free Member

    why is it referred to as a ‘gruppo’ and not a ‘groupo’?

    TiRed
    Full Member

    “gruppetto” is a small group. Could just be a contraction.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    Hmm aren’t the current shimano brake/levers interchangeable with the old ones? Might have found a use for my old XT calipers, tempted to look at that hydro STI for my cx bike.

    Or have they gone and made the levers unusable with mtb as per gearing?

    globalti
    Free Member

    So…. an alloy Cannondale Synapse disc with 11 speed, hydraulic discs and mechanical shifting and mudguards as a winter bike, anyone?

    Gotta sell three other bikes to finance it and make space in the garage first….

    sssimon
    Free Member

    sounds perfect, I had planed on buying a ew road bike this year but I reckon 2015 is going to see the bike I really want become reality so I’m holding off

    mboy
    Free Member

    the heathen that I am at the moment has a road bike with a 53/39 front and an 32/11 rear cassette running an XTR rear mech. Works really really well. Its a 10spd setup with a 9spd rear mech. But it would be nice to have solutions from Shimano where you could just pick whatever component you needed, and know that they would all work together.

    You can

    And the parts have been available for a good few years now. Ultegra 6700, 105 5700, Tiagra 4600, Sora 3500 and new Claris 2400 all have a medium cage, 8/9/10 spd compatible rear mech in the range that will take a 32T top cog when used in conjunction with a double chainset.

    SRAM may have publicised being able to fit a 32T cog on a road groupset with their introduction of “Wi- FLi” technology, but SRAM are largely a marketing exercise (that works very well) whilst Shimano being typically Japanese, are much more modest and often forget to shout about some of their products features.

    maico
    Free Member

    I was looking yesterday and the groupset was 40% off RRP. Now only 30%

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-105-5800-11-speed-groupset/rp-prod116477

    D0NK
    Full Member

    You can

    unfortunately not, if you want a big cassette either tourers or 1×10 CXers then your knackered trying to get an 11-36 on there. You could run a 9spd mtb mech (that probably isn’t actually rated for 36T either)
    Have shimano offered a reason* for 10spd road and mtb having different pull?
    *and is it a valid one?

    breatheeasy
    Free Member

    So…. an alloy Cannondale Synapse disc with 11 speed, hydraulic discs and mechanical shifting and mudguards as a winter bike, anyone?

    Sold!

    I do love the way some of the reviews have been gushing about how the ‘new’ Shimano chainset ‘standard’ allows both compact and normal chainrings to be fitted as if that was some kind of miracle and couldn’t have been achieved by chucking a 52/39 set of 110PCD chainrings on a current compact chainset 🙄

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I do love the way some of the reviews have been gushing about how the ‘new’ Shimano chainset ‘standard’ allows both compact and normal chainrings to be fitted as if that was some kind of miracle and couldn’t have been achieved by chucking a 52/39 set of 110PCD chainrings on a current compact chainset

    Problem being that a 50t chainring already flexes a lot, goung 4-10% bigger just makes it worse. The new rings are
    a) stiffer as they’re hollow (IDK if the older hollow 5-arm DA fit on normal cranks?)
    b) stiffer as the crank arms are actualy where the bending is

    Posted 2 days ago #Report-Post

    DezB – Member

    Still on 9 speed here…I really don’t see the point of 10/11 speed, and I (occasionally) compete!

    But, but… “With it being 11-speed it brings many of the functions and features that you get with both Ultegra and Dura-Ace to a much wider range of riders.”
    😀

    I’ve noticed I hardly ever shift 1 gear on 10 spd.

    Shiftings only part of it, the friction in the internal cabled shimano 10s groupsets is terrible. Presumably they’re refering to no longer bodgeing the old 10s STI’s with a 90deg cable bend and using the re-designed DA-9000/Ultegrea-6800 internal design.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    Shiftings only part of it, the friction in the internal cabled shimano 10s groupsets

    all 10spd groupsets? Is it really that bad?

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)

The topic ‘Thank you Shimano, one step closer to my perfect road bike.’ is closed to new replies.