I can’t even play tennis FFS.

Gave it to myself trying to remove my maxel that was a bit stuck. A bit too much grip and I felt it go pop, in September.

Its still sore of course so is acupuncture a short cut cure or just keep taking Ibruprofen???

It needs to be better for Les Gets in July

too much fapp fapping over on ones innit…….;o)

My sympathies. I had this and got a good response to the thread I started looking for advice.

I had a lot of physio and then eventually it plateaued. Was seriously looking at cortizone injections. Fortunately I dealt with the cause of it (type of bar ends), wore an albow support for riding and now it’s OK. Get the odd niggle though.

After much delay and faffing with alternatives, I opted for the cortisone injection. Man – that was the most painful experience I’ve ever had.

Completely cured it though.

Accupuncture will have no direct effect on the injury. its proven in the western medicine model to reduce pain and inflammation tho. Its the old RICE for that IMO plus cortisone injection if required and / or surgery. Most will settle in time on their own and its best if they can

Are you sure its tennis elbow? It usually does not occur suddenly with a pop.

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/tennis_elbow.html

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/qanda/tennis_elbow_qanda.html#1

Whatever, acupuncture fixed mine. It was caused by a tear in the forearm muscle (windsurfing) which became a trigger point and put the muscle into spasm and inflamed the elbow. The trigger point was directly needled as well as other points in the arm, it took three sessions, and it’s as good as fixed. I ice the elbow after any heavy sessions (windsurfing, bike, gym) as a precaution and it’s fine.

off for an op on mine in november, very painfull , going the injection thing every 3 months at the mo. i also dont play frigging golf, also had fluid at the base of my ackilise tendons(both of them) and had to have the inections , done by ultra sound, yes i did cry a bit.

The evidence for Accupunture is tenuous at best.

As a for instance. Fake accupunture is as good as “real” accupuncture

Now granted the Scotsman isn’t exactly what I’d call a fantastically reliable source but it’s at least as good as a bike forum.

tenuous at best?

“Both types of genuine acu-puncture – either individually tailored treatment or a standardised “across the board” treatment – produced a substantial improvement in symptoms and the ability of patients to cope with their condition at eight weeks.

In contrast, the “usual care” patients functioned only slight-ly better.”

The results of this study are quite striking imho, proving that acupuncture produces a significantly better outcome than offered by normal medical treatment.

The focus of the western medical biased press has been on the effect of “sham” acupuncture being similarly effective, diverting attention from the fact that western treatments are failing in comparison to acupuncture.

The effectiveness of the “sham” acupuncture treatment may also be explained by the fact that, and this might be bit hard for cynics to swallow, acupuncture does not always require the insertion of a needle into the skin. There are many acupuncure styles, such as Toyahari, that involve the manipulation of a needle or similar object above the point rather than insertion.

Acupuncture does not work for everyone, nothing does, but it can sometimes be your best option.

There is good evidence using the “western medical model” for acupuncture to be effective in chronic pain relief and allied areas such as drug withdrawal and the like.

There is very little real evidence of it having any effect on injuries such as suffered by the OP.

Acupuncture certainly has its place and is a useful treatment but evidence based practise would suggest that its role is very limited.

The results of this study are quite striking imho, proving that acupuncture produces a significantly better outcome than offered by normal medical treatment.

Sorry but that study shows no such thing.

There were 3 groups of patients and all of them received “usual care”.

Group 1 received “usual care” plus acupuncture in line with accupunture guidleines

Group 2 received “usual care” plus accupuncture using tooth picks

Group 3 (aka the control group) received “usual care” plus no accupuncture

The results showed that when used in addition to normal care some form of additional therapy was benefical. This can however, and this might be bit hard for those who don’t think critically to swallow, be explained by the placebo effect.

In order to prove that “acupuncture produces a significantly better outcome than offered by normal medical treatment” the comparison would have to be made between those who received only accupunture and those who received only “usual treatment”. This study did not do this.

The effectiveness of accupuncture is down to nothing more than the placebo effect, and to claim things like “acupuncture does not always require the insertion of a needle into the skin” is just a case of moving the goalposts when a proper study demonstrates that it is an innefective treatment.

Gonefishin – acupuncture is certainly more than placebo effect. Just not the panacea it is often claimed to be.

Measurable effects and proven outcomes in chronic pain and similar symptoms

The reason there is “little evidence” by which you mean published RCT papers is that these are expensive to produce and who would fund them? Certainly not the drug companies or any groups within their influence.
It would not do to show that a drug free(revenue free) protocol may have similar or better outcomes.

TJ I should have only refered to the outcomes of this study as being down to the placebo effect and not extrapolate my comments to include all accupunture as that is not what the study refers to. Thanks for correcting me on that one.

“The reason there is “little evidence” by which you mean published RCT papers is that these are expensive to produce and who would fund them?”

Well I’d have thought that the NHS, and a good deal of other public health care providers, would be willing as if it reduced costs and achieved the same ends this would be seen to be a good think in terms of value for money. Blaming “Big Pharma” for the lack of evidence smacks of delusion/paranoia.

From times online

“Karen Sherman, also a member of the research team, said that, historically, some types of acupuncture have used non-penetrating needles, possibly explaining the success of the placebo treatment.”

It’s not moving the goalposts, the results are plain to see, acupuncture sceptics will shout “placebo!” without a full view of the possible reasons.

Placebo effect tends to derive from the understanding of the patient that the treatment they are having will be beneficial, this comes into play with standard western teatments as well. As all three groups in this trial had some form of treatment I would suggest that the placebo effect would be equally distributed and does not explain the better outcome for the two acupuncture/sham acupuncture groups.

this comes into play with standard western teatments as well

Absolutely it does.

As all three groups in this trial had some form of treatment I would suggest that the placebo effect would be equally distributed and does not explain the better outcome for the two acupuncture/sham acupuncture groups.

Hmmmm no not really. Any placebo effect due to the usual treatment would be equal across all three groups that is true, however what this trial show is that, in a blinded trial, sham accupunture is as good as real accupuncture. If a sham treatment (whatever it may be) is a good as a real treatment (whatever it may be) the effect can only really be attributed to a placebo effect.

To be honest I thought that this was another study that I’d heard about where there was a 4th group who received “real” accupunture but had the needels placed in random positions. It may be that study and it was just poor reporting. I’ll try and find a link later this evning.

I don’t know about tennis elbow, but acupuncture 100% cured my carpal tunnel syndrome in 2 sessions – my GP had told me that I would need an op.

Yes I know that it’s not suppose to work, but try telling that to my left arm.

well, i didnt have acupuncture, but when i was suffereing from mild tennis elbow, my osteopath told me that when it was playing up, that if i strapped up my fore arm, just below the elbow, it would help… I cant really describe it, but it was odd, and he also did other wierd things with ‘pressure points’, that had amazing effects.

SO it’s worth a try in my opinion…

Right I’ve not had as much time as I would have liked, however This is a far better critique of the study in question. The conclusion are basically that not only does it not matter whether or not the skin is punctured by a needle but it also doesn’t matter where the skin is punctured which kind of makes a mockery of the whole idea of acupuncture.

On more general acupuncture reviews this study of several trials shows no effect and it concludes that

A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.

Until better evidence comes to light that not only demonstrates that acupuncture works beyond that of a placebo but also explains what was wrong with these trials then I’m going to maintain my opinion that acupuncture doesn’t work, by which I mean there is no effect beyond that of a placebo.

For anyone who wants some more accessible reading on this and similar topics, I thoroughly recommend Trick or Treatment by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst.

Just for the record, tennis elbow doesn’t go ‘pop’…

Until better evidence comes to light ………I’m going to maintain my opinion that acupuncture doesn’t work

Bugger ……. that must mean even though I haven’t had any symptoms for about 10 years, I still have carpal tunnel syndrome.

Guess I’m going to have to go back to my GP for a referral and have the op after all 🙁

ernie – you should know that one case is not statistically significant. Yours could have got better co incidentally, the acupuncture could have cured it or (IMO most likely) the diagnosis was wrong. I have been told I had carpal tunnel syndrome by my GP and I knew damn well it wasnt

one case is not statistically significant

Well since that ‘one case’ happened to be me, I personally find it hugely ‘statistically significant’.

Could have got better coincidentally ? Well I suppose so, but bearing in mind that I had the problem, a load of needles were jabbed in my arm, after about 20 mins they were removed and about 80% of the symptoms were gone, a few days later the same process was repeated and after about another 20 mins all the symptoms were gone, never ever to return, it was one big **** coincidence.

Maybe not carpal tunnel syndrome ? Suppose so…… so ok, acupuncture cured my left arm of symptoms which were identical to carpal tunnel syndrome – no idea if it will work for your tennis elbow Coolhandluke.

HTH