you can't argue that elected government is sacrosanct, except when you don't like how things are going, in which case unelected technocrats take over. If that situation arises you call an immediate election. Otherwise your whole argument for parliamentary democracy goes out of the window.
When Ernie and I agree, etc....
Ernie - who appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?
Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
ernie,I agree.
having said that,democracy has been eroded quite severely in italy by the fact that B created a certain type of italian,or at least gave it some form of justification.a-by his example.b-by the constant bombardment with private(and now state-as he changed everybody in RAI to suit him) media.
And that's not democratic in spirit,though it is in form.
(barely,seeing as lots of dead people seemed to have voted B)
Tj,but how about those that voted libdem and then saw that they had supported the tories.
In italy you can't choose the candidate,just the party.that's not really very democratic is it?
CaptainFlashheart - MemberArguing against this principle is simply calling for some mad dictatorship, or some mad form of communism
And you know who's behind all this - the Italian president Giorgio Napolitano. Giorgio Napolitano was an inspiring European communist leader committed to eurocommunism/parliamentary democracy during my formative years, I've even heard him make live speeches. Unlike him however, I've kept the faith 
I hear Cuba's lovely at this time of year, Ernie. 
Oh look, another "lets bash the EU" thread. 
Only this time with a twist, being those who don't like the the EU for it's slightly socialist agenda, are now attacking because the Capitalist technocrat bankers have taken charge.
Perhaps you should read that Tony Benn passage further up the thread, because it doesn't matter whether it's the EU, US or whatever political/economic ideology, the bankers and those of their ilk(like the ones who currently occupy cabinet positions) have always held sway over us where ever we are. Italy and Greece have further demonstrated that Democracy the world over is an illusion with their technocrats.
I'm sure we will continue to believe all this is justified because those at the top and their wealth will "trickle down" to us, even as they pay themselves more and more and we get squeezed more and more.
But I doubt this will wake enough people up, particularly in this country. Perhaps democracy needs to disappear for a bit, then we might miss it when it's gone.
I'm Pro-Eu, just not pro this current EU.
the bankers and those of their ilk(like the ones who currently occupy cabinet positions) have always held sway over us where ever we are.
The difference is that here in the UK there is still a limited check in the way they operate, despite the power they wield. In Italy the 17 technocrats which now make up the government don't have to worry about such niceties like standing for election - and possibly getting rejected by the electorate.
Elected government/universal suffrage is far from perfect, and there is widespread cynicism of its value, with a substantial and growing proportion of the electorate not participating. But the alternative, ie, the absence of elected government, even if temporary, is both immeasurable less desirable, and dangerous.
What is needed is more and better democracy, not less.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Come on then TJ, defend your beloved Eurocrats as they ride roughshod over democratic process
bit like dave and the referendum vote then?
So, sorry, let me get this straight.
Elected idiots who run the country into the ground are better because they're *elected* idiots.
Appointed experts who may be able to resolve the years of mistakes made by the idiots are bad because they're not elected, although they are more than capable of solving the problems caused by the last lot?
Yes, democracy is good. Yes, autocratic rule is bad. But when the elected idiots have turned the economy to sh*t, and a solution is needed and can't be provided by anyone else, would you rather more elected idiots, or a period of appointed experts who can fix the problems (and stand for re-election in the next elections)? We're not talking a wholesale change to appointed government, but a temporary resumption of common sense to solve the economic problems. Hell, if it's good enough for Gordon Brown and his Clowns....
Elected idiots who run the country into the ground are better because they're *elected* idiots.
Appointed experts who may be able to resolve the years of mistakes made by the idiots are bad because they're not elected, although they are more than capable of solving the problems caused by the last lot?
Basically, if you believe democracy is a good thing then yes,
As for comments about paying taxes have a look at California. Give the electorate the choice of pay no tax and maintain spending levels.
Tax avoidance is not a Greek and Italian thing, they may have taken it to a different level, but all corporations enact tax minimisation policies, most voters try and do what they can to avoid tax, how may people would declare bike bits imported into the EU and pay the duties if they aren't caught , of course not you got it a bit cheaper.
TandemJeremy - Memberwho appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?
Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
TandemJeremy - Member
who appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
Monti isn't a democratically elected politician, he is a Life Senator, so his position in the parliament is that of an appointee, much like a life Peer (although Life Senator are far smaller in number (7 I believe). He has then appointed a cabinet which consists of zero politicians.
That is a pretty big difference to someone who is an ex-officio member of the cabinet by virtue of her party duties. If you were smarter and less partisan, you could have used Mandelson or if you have to have a Tory, maybe Young or Carrington, even so the odd member of the cabinet is very different from the whole cabinet including the PM.
It is generally accepted in this country, since Salisbury, that the PM has to be an elected representative and Home gave up his peerage to so become.
. If you were smarter and less partisan, you could have used Mandelson
couldn't think of anyone else at the time Mandelson is a very good example
These appointees all have to be confirmed by the parliament do they not? to me its not the huge issue that people are making it out to be - but then I am much more cynical about our "Democracy" than many
or a period of appointed experts who can fix the problems (and stand for re-election in the next elections)?
At the risk of invoking Goodwins law
There was once a time in Europe where someone was appointed with the promise of general elections in 3 months time
Unfortunately there was a communist uprising signalled by the torching of the Reichs.. parliament building so the appointee declared himself in charge and had laws passed for the ' Protection of the People and the State' banning lots of the other political parties which meant he went on to win the said election.
He is putting a vote of confidence before both houses, the extent to which he requires parliamentary support to effect his reforms I have no idea. Still my view is that the executive should be elected representatives.
Describing people as technocrats often obscures the ideological underpinnings of what they are doing.
Exactly. Whats most worrying about this whole situation is the reason why they're over-riding democratic government. And there is a very real reason.
There's no way on earth that any electorate are going to vote for anyone who's going to put them through what is about to happen to them. It has to be imposed. And if that means suspending democracy for the duration, then so be it!
That would all be fine if the actions taken ultimately represented the best interests of the country. But they don't. Far from it. These regimes represent the interests of the financial institutions, to the total exclusion of any other consideration.
"The Markets' will recoup the maximum amount of their reckless lending, plus interest, whatever the cost. Look at Greece. Austerity is actually shrinking their economy at a ridiculous rate. Its collapsing and threatening the future viability of an entire society. Do 'The Markets' care? Do they ****! They just want their money back. NOW!!!
Its short termism taken to a frankly ridiculous degree. Its terrifying!
Would you say, binbins that perhaps it's a slightly altered version of disaster capitalism. You don't have any books to recommend on that do you?
Steve Bell's take on the Northern Rock purchase:
I do tend to bang on about it a bit, don't I DD? I'm nothing if not tedious and repetitive. Its the early onset Alzheimers
Read this:
Basically summarises exactly whats happening in Europe at present. Written a good few years ago, before all the present hoo-ha. Scary
Edit: On a side note, I think we should all start referring to you as 'Bravisimo' from now on. Not only as its mildly amusing, but also to ensure the continued presence of that advert which always accompanies you 
binners - Member
...There's no way on earth that any electorate are going to vote for anyone who's going to put them through what is about to happen to them. It has to be imposed. And if that means suspending democracy for the duration, then so be it!...
It has to be imposed but only so that the financiers get their money back, not for the benefit of the electorate.
The answer is revolution.
I would probably agree with the main conclusions but Naomi Klein is the height (nadir) of read-a-few-articles-skimmed-the-surface-wrote-a-short-and-unchallenging-book-at-the-right-time. I can't stand her. She's Johann Hari with less humour and more fact-checking.
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