Apologies if this is in the Panama Papers thread, it’s getting a bit long to keep up…

Anyhoo, given the clamour for ‘politicians’ (define politician) to publish theirs, should all tax returns be public? IIRC, this is the case in Denmark.

Personally, I think they should. Tax is essentially an individual’s ‘subs’ into the club that is society, and whether or not someone is paying their correct subs should be public knowledge.

They are in Norway IIRC…

I’d say yes, although it would be a huge cultural shock for the UK as we don’t like talking about money (except other people’s)..

No, why should they be. There is a government department there to make sure it’s done right. There are too many judgemental people here who will take numbers as facts regardless of circumstances. The politics of envy…

Other countries do this, as you say. Might the reason we don’t be part of the British reticence to discuss money and how much people earn?

Not sure I see it as a problem; maybe should be a precondition of running for public office?

No, why should they be

Because

Tax is essentially an individual’s ‘subs’ into the club that is society, and whether or not someone is paying their correct subs should be public knowledge.

Because
Tax is essentially an individual’s ‘subs’ into the club that is society, and whether or not someone is paying their correct subs should be public knowledge.

Everyone happy to have their cycle to work milage documented? 😉
It’s also about what people earn, many people have a negotiated salary package which is private.

No.

Just because other countries do it, doesn’t by default make it a good idea.

Tax is essentially an individual’s ‘subs’ into the club that is society, and whether or not someone is paying their correct subs should be public knowledge.

I’d prefer my tax to be judged by professionals who understand the rules, rather than nosey amateurs.

In the same way as when I need to “withdraw club funds” and have treatment from the NHS, I have my medical records looked at by trained medics, rather than some nosey bus driver at the end of my street who thinks he knows better.

No they shouldn’t.

…and whether or not someone is paying their correct subs should be public knowledge.

How would the average person know if someone was paying enough tax or not!? Give your financial info to 3 accountants and you’d get 3 different sets of answers.

many people have a negotiated salary package which is private

Public tax returns would allow these negotiations to be fairer, as you would actually know what your colleagues doing similar jobs earned. At the moment, the privacy runs in the employer’s favour.

Nope, none of your chuffing business.

Nosy gits.

Public tax returns would allow these negotiations to be fairer, as you would actually know what your colleagues doing similar jobs earned.

How does that mean better salaries? It could end up like the minimum wage with wages pushed down… “Sorry mate, everyone in the department gets paid £25k, no exceptions. Makes no difference if you’ve got 10yrs more experience and are awesome”.

Nope. That’s HMRC’s job, not Joe Public’s

Yes, you need to be assured that they play by the rules. No, you don’t need to scrutinise the details personally.

Public tax returns would allow these negotiations to be fairer, as you would actually know what your colleagues doing similar jobs earned. At the moment, the privacy runs in the employer’s favour.

Or the employee worth more, maybe the others are not worth the extra. Perhaps they are shit and need getting shot of but you need to bring somebody decent in?
In the end of the day it always ends up down to envy and the suspicion that someone else is fiddling the system. HMRC should be there to make sure it’s fair. The internet is just a witch hunt.

“Sorry mate, everyone in the department gets paid £25k, no exceptions. Makes no difference if you’ve got 10yrs more experience and are awesome”.

They can say that now, and you have no way of knowing if they were trying it on.

This latest hoo-ha has just come about as a result of the revelations about the Camerons’ off-shore holdings. And the media and the politicians, unsurprisingly, have got the wrong end of the stick.

Off-shore funds have got nothing to do with tax avoidance, “aggressive” tax avoidance, tax evasion etc. They’re all about hiding your money from prying eyes (and being able to hide it securely).

Nobody is going to put on their tax return “I received £200,000 in dodgy bribes and sent it to my account in the Cayman Islands” now, are they?

They can say that now, and you have no way of knowing if they were trying it on.

Employment works both ways, if your not happy move along. Do you really want to work for the company that pays the least?
I’m places where rigid pay structure has been the norm it’s also crap where there is no way to reward the good as the bad are at the same band.

The point about paying ‘subs’ is these are for organisations you choose to join. You don’t get a choice to join society.

I’m a little confused by this (the practice, not the principle).

Say for instance Mr Slippery was suspected of not paying his share – how would publishing his tax return help prove he was behaving properly? Surely the objective is to keep undisclosed income off the tax return altogether?

Mr Slippery’s tax return would show that the tax on disclosed income has been paid. But all the ‘undisclosed’ is still undisclosed.

You don’t get a choice to join society.

You can always choose to leave though!

Mr Slippery’s tax return would show that the tax on disclosed income has been paid. But all the ‘undisclosed’ is still undisclosed.

If he appears to living a lifestyle well above his declared means, then someone may chose to shop him and he could be investigated…

I’d prefer my tax to be judged by professionals who understand the rules, rather than nosey amateurs

You were probably OK with having to display a Tax disc on your car though?

Just an extension of the same principle.

You were probably OK with having to display a Tax disc on your car though?

Except that was primarily for police officers to check whether your vehicle was taxed in the pre-computerised days, rather than for members of the public to dob you in.

The HMRC phoneline would be jammed with neighbours who hated each other going through their return and then ringing up to report the new Audi arriving.

How does that mean better salaries? It could end up like the minimum wage with wages pushed down… “Sorry mate, everyone in the department gets paid £25k, no exceptions. Makes no difference if you’ve got 10yrs more experience and are awesome”.

But if market rate is above that, people will leave (and TRUE market rate will be a lot easier to determine). Transparent salaries don’t mean better salaries – but they can mean fairer salaries (women not being paid less, guy who joined at 20 and been there for 15 yrs loyally getting 2.5% increase each year getting 5k less than a new start with a fraction of his experience).

Most people don’t make a tax return so presumably would only have their P60 made public. I certainly think there is an argument for anyone in a position of authority to be doing something like it. Perhaps just a very standardised register of interests is all that is needed – and if your entries in there (which needn’t publicly disclose £££) don’t match what you tell HMRC you’ll have a problem. However the problem isn’t that anyone has actually been breaking the rules is it? The issue is that most ordinary people think that the rules are intentionally lax to suit those further up the chain than them!

– Contractors & dividends
– Buy 2 let landlords
– Inheritance tax planning
– Company car / vans
– Bike 2 work scheme

That’s a typical day in the life of STW.

We’re English, for Gods sake!

We don’t talk about what we earn. Leave that to those frightful Americans.

If everyone suddenly knew what everyone else actually earned,I predict that the entire country would descend into violent anarchy within minutes

Everyone happy to have their cycle to work milage documented?

So are you suggesting a good reason for not making tax returns public is that some people might be committing tax fraud?

Nope. That’s HMRC’s job, not Joe Public’s

True but where’s the fun in that – no faux outrage; social media would go cold and we would have to go back to minding our own business.

Put them on the web along with a naked photo – lets have it all out there (was Scandinavia mentioned anywhere?)

Perhaps Strava could make an app, and we can have “king of the pay rises” or “I pay more tax than you do and am more moral” – it would be great fun.

This latest hoo-ha has just come about as a result of the revelations about the Camerons’ off-shore holdings. And the media and the politicians, unsurprisingly, have got the wrong end of the stick.

sshhh, someone might start a thread 😉

Except that was primarily for police officers to check whether your vehicle was taxed in the pre-computerised days

But nobody was up in arms about displaying how much VED they’d paid on a sticker on their car…

We don’t talk about what we earn. Leave that to those frightful Americans Norwegians.

FIFY

I’m sure all PAYE employees would welcome this. Currently it isn’t fair that (some) self employed people can choose how much tax they pay.

It will never happen though as it wouldn’t paint the full picture and would cause all sort of issues.

No, why should they be

Norwegian tax returns have been publicly available since the 1800s, the idea being that financial transparency is seen a vital part of social democracy.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2012/04/want-to-know-what-tax-transparency-looks-like-look-at-norway/

But nobody was up in arms about displaying how much VED they’d paid on a sticker on their car…

Possibly because everyone paid the same, regardless of salary, so the only information it disclosed to your neighbour was ‘I have a car’. Which was pretty obvious by the presence of the car.

If it also contained your salary, whether or not you were paying into a pension, how much share capital you had, then I guess people might have been a little less relaxed about it.

the only information it disclosed to your neighbour was ‘I have a car’

It also showed that you had paid the correct amount of tax rather than dodging it.

We could play spot the drug dealer.

Joe earns £20k and drives an RR sport – whats the number for Crimewatch?

Even more fun than I first thought.

Nicola has done so with hers.

Ruthie-Tankie had to follow.

Scotland leads.

So you’re suggesting we bring back the paper VED for that purpose? Disclosing my full tax return would be no real evidence that I was paying all the tax due on my vast wealth. And a seemingly-wealthy lifestyle on a low income isn’t reliable evidence that I’m dodging tax.

So you’re suggesting we bring back the paper VED for that purpose?

No? How on earth did you manage to come to that conclusion?

I was merely observing that the one example of public declaration of tax payment didn’t seem to bother people much….

Yeah, I say do it.

My Company Accounts are all ready public. In fact you can search them quite easily.

I’m sure all PAYE employees would welcome this. Currently it isn’t fair that (some) self employed people can choose how much tax they pay.

A bit like how the business you work for chooses how much tax it’ll pay?

Folk who are PAYE seem to think that anyone self-employed/contractor pays no tax at all.

FWIW we pay income tax, national insurance, coporation tax and VAT.

Along with having to budget for an Accountant to cope with the constant changes the Govt puts through plus nobody pays us sick, maternity, paternity and holiday pay!

Are you NickJB as well? – it was his point I was answering.

Scotland leads.

Dave’s Scottish?

(forgot he only published a sneeky summary)

Folk who are PAYE seem to think that anyone self-employed/contractor pays no tax at all.

Well then, public tax returns would set that straight…

Well then, public tax returns would set that straight…

Well scan up your P60 and let’s get started. I’m not even asking for your full return… 🙂