So how are all the Scots feeling about the new anti-austerity budget?

Massive mandate and clear focus on being totally different from those nasty, nasty Tories. How was the delivery yesterday?

Is NHS Scotland in good hands too??

Thank goodness for new, alternative politics/economics so that we can see how all these different strategies pan out….it was getting so boring having the same policies all the time….remember those red Tories, eh?

Oh do bore off, eh?

…. totally different from those nasty, nasty Tories.

Sometimes THM I could swear that you are Tory. But of course you claim to be “politically neutral”.

It was that good?!?

The obsession continues…

Avoid the swear box then Ernie.

Love to see some new policies especially when delivered with a strong democratic mandate. A refreshing change….

We can see how the different policies pan out nice and clearly now….

According to the opposition parties in Scotland, it was a terrible budget because SNP Bad, but they can’t think of anything specifically they would do differently. So business as usual, really.

I’m not too impressed with the way the roads budget is up and rail is down.

I’m not too impressed with the way the roads budget is up and rail is down

Forth road bridge will cost a lot as will disruption, and caledonian sleeper staff on strike, despite huge funding from the government to keep it running

According to the opposition parties in Scotland, it was a terrible budget because SNP Bad, but they can’t think of anything specifically they would do differently.

Probably because they are all as right-wing as the SNP.

I think it’s probably more that they’re resigned to being in opposition for the next decade at least, so don’t need to have any actual policies of their own, just some attack phrases.

That, and they’re scraping the bottom of the talent barrel.

They should’ve knocked a penny off tax, and sucked up the cost centrally. Politically it’d blown all the opposition away.

Even better would be a couple (or more) percentage off Employers NI – could’ve grabbed a goodly lump of the back-office/call-centre market.

There are enough projects/depts that could’ve taken a hit for the money – if anyone thinks otherwise logon to http://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/ and see the kinda stuff that’s been bought.

The opposition are blown away anyway, and a race to the bottom tax-wise isn’t really a good idea.

The opposition being Scottish Labour? So they’re maintaining links with the UK party then.

The opposition are blown away anyway, and a race to the bottom tax-wise isn’t really a good idea.

Of course it is. It would increase the tax raised.

the love that dare not speak its name appears again

sorry it much more like the loathe that will not shut the **** up

NHS waiting times in Scotland seem to be doing better than some, surely that’s good thing.

I think the SNP can, and will, weasel themselves out of this one purely on the back of how the 10% Scottish tax rate works at the moment. It’s 10% across the board. The SNP are never going to increase tax for the 40%ers if it means the same increase for the 20%ers. Likewise, they’ll never lower tax for the 20%ers if it means lowering it for the 40%ers too. The politics of envy don’t work this way, and this I can understand.

What is utterly unforgivable is the stupid, ridiculous 9-year freeze on council tax rises. A 12 year old could tell you that stuff costs more now than it did 9 years ago, so why the insistence on strangling council budgets? Who benefits from this? Middle class folk who get their groceries delivered and so don’t travel on public transport, rarely require help from social services, and get their bins cleaned weekly by some entrepreneur or other. Who are the ones who suffer most from this? The poorest of the community, the ones the SNP claim to be the party of. Sure, they may have an extra couple of hundred quid a year, but when you have fewer travel options, fewer jobs, fewer services to access, less opportunity, then what good is it? The SNP are an absolute shower of wastrels, morally, politically and ethically bankrupt, and the sooner the electorate wake up to this the better. But no; as long as they’re shouting from the rooftops against whatever the majority opinion in Westminster is, regardless of how damaging that ends up being for Scotland, then seemingly all is good. And no, mindless SNP drones of STW-ville, “well we’re no worse than anyone else” is not a mitigating factor. Especially when you are worse than everyone else, by almost any metric you care to use.

Agree re council tax. It’s an odd policy and used to blackmail the local authorities. Be interesting to see how the SNP would respond if councils organised themselves a bit more effectively and resisted the freeze jointly. Something has to give as local authority budgets have been slashed and I know this can be partly attributed to the money from Westminster but the SNP should, and could, be doing more.

What is utterly unforgivable is the stupid, ridiculous 9-year freeze on council tax rises. A 12 year old could tell you that stuff costs more now than it did 9 years ago, so why the insistence on strangling council budgets?

Everyone else improves efficiency. Councils can too.

Who benefits from this?

Everyone.

Everyone else improves efficiency. Councils can too.

So I take it you’d be happy with a 0% pay rise in each of the previous 9 years? That equates to a 35% reduction in income over the same timescale (using the Bank of England inflation calculator). I don’t know many people who would welcome the chance to “improve efficiency” in the face of those figures. They might even complain about having austerity imposed on them.

Very few benefit from social care eligibility criteria being raised to ridiculous levels because there’s no money left, nor Social Workers having caseloads of 50 plus because there’s no money for more staff. Very few benefit from libraries and leisure centres closing either. Yes, efficiencies needed to be found, and in my experience have been mostly. You can’t keep on making the same savings, year on year, with budgets frozen and declining in real terms.

The cuts have to come somewhere – the Scottish Government can mitigate some of them, but there’s only so much that can be done. So the question is not whether budgets should be cut, it’s which ones – cutting council funding with a freeze isn’t brilliant, but what’s the alternative? What should be cut instead?

Polling also shows that council funding is the most popular thing to cut. That might be because people don’t really understand what councils do, but it’s a fact.

Although I would willingly pay more council tax, as I work in social care which has been cut drastically, I do think that a major reform is needed possibly a combination of land value tax and local income tax. However raising council tax wouldn’t solve the problem as it accounts for about a 15% *of council funding. To really ease the cuts requires an increase in the block grant from Holyrood which realistically requires an increase in their block grant from Westminster. As this will not be forthcoming Swinney was correct to deliver a cautious budget until we know what the new fiscal framework will be. * source of figures

Why does it have to be cuts? Especially given the Tory Austerity narrative forced down our throats every verse end? The Scottish Government have had the ability to adjust income tax by +/- 3% since 1998, and come April 2016 can do what they like with the special Scottish 10%. On the indyref threads everyone always says how they’d be more than happy to pay a bit more if it meant a fairer Scotland. The problem we have is that it doesn’t suit the SNP’s “Westminster hates us, independence is the only solution” fairytale to actually use the powers they have for the good of Scotland.

I think the OP’s remarks where directed at the Holyrood budget not the Council Tax freeze which according to the Scottish Parliament Research Centre has cost the Scottish government £2.5 billion and has resulted in overfunding.

What happens to future local authority services remains to be seen after a 3.5% reduction in funding.

To really ease the cuts requires an increase in the block grant from Holyrood which realistically requires an increase in their block grant from Westminster.

To be paid for how?

The Scottish Government have had the ability to adjust income tax by +/- 3% since 1998, and come April 2016 can do what they like with the special Scottish 10%.

The problem at the moment is that rates can only be adjusted together – can’t raise just the top rate, for example. Can’t adjust the bands either. Once the extra Scotland Bill powers come in, there is a little more latitude to play with but still nowhere near enough to avoid the austerity being forced on us.

To be paid for how?

Borrowing. Almost every economist thinks Osborne’s idea of running a surplus is lunacy, no other country in the world apart from one runs a budget surplus. Only Norway do, because they were smart enough to invest their oil revenues.

Which way do you want to have it flying ox as bettertogether often claimed that raising taxes in Scotland would result in a flight of higher rate tax payers over the border.
More importantly you noticed yourself that there’s no power to change the tax bands so very same low paid folk hit hardest by the cuts would be hit by a tax rise

I think the OP’s remarks where directed at the Holyrood budget not the Council Tax freeze

Forgive me, but I’m pretty sure the council tax freeze formed part of Swinney’s budget for 2016-2017, and given it continues an ongoing policy of reducing council budgets in real terms, then it can conceivably fall under the heading of “Tartan Austerity”.

Once the extra Scotland Bill powers come in, there is a little more latitude to play with but still nowhere near enough to avoid the austerity being forced on us.

Your best hope in that case is probably a Labour government in Westminster, rather than an English tax-haven for wealthy Scots.

Are you thinking of voting Labour next general election?

Are you thinking of voting Labour next general election?

If we had PR and a federal system of government, yes – I’d almost certainly be a Labour voter (or maybe Green). But we don’t – I still think Westminster is fundamentally broken and incapable of fixing itself, so the only solution is Scottish independence.

Forgive me, but I’m pretty sure the council tax freeze formed part of Swinney’s budget for 2016-2017

The announced 3.5% reduction in Holyrood funding is new and it contrasts with the extra £2.5 billion which the council tax freeze has cost Holyrood.

You’ve been banging on about what has happened for the last 9 years not what will be happening in the future.

Almost every economist thinks Osborne’s idea of running a surplus is lunacy, no other country in the world apart from one runs a budget surplus. Only Norway do, because they were smart enough to invest their oil revenues.

So are Norway smart, or lunatics? From your description I can’t decide.

Which way do you want to have it flying ox as bettertogether often claimed that raising taxes in Scotland would result in a flight of higher rate tax payers over the border.

I’d have the UK remain the UK so that tax policy was uniform across the country, I’d raise the tax-free threshold to equate to a living wage, then change the tax bands in a sensible manner, maybe introducing a 30% inbetween the 20% and 40% bands.

So are Norway smart, or lunatics? From your description I can’t decide

They were smart enough to invest their massive oil wealth so they could run a budget surplus. We didn’t, so we have to run a deficit like every other country on the planet.

You’ve been banging on about what has happened for the last 9 years not what will be happening in the future.

Swinney said council tax would (yet again) be frozen for 2016-2017. That’s in the future when I come from.

introducing a 30% inbetween the 20% and 40% bands

Personally I would raise the higher rate. Since you are clearly a unionist and I am avowedly pro independence I better stop droning on.

Before you go, given you pro-indy lot are always spouting about fairness, how is raising the 40% rate fairer than what I have suggested? Politics of envy again?

This is what pisses me off about tabloid-reading armchair chancellors*. Someone earning £60k (£17874 to HMRC, takes home 70% of salary) already pays disproportionately more to HMRC than someone on £20k (£3313 to HMRC, takes home 83% of salary).

And you think it’s fair to tax the £60k earner even more? That’s why percentages are used in the first place – you earn more, you pay more.

£60k jobs don’t grow on trees. They tend to involve A LOT of training/experience/expertise and more-often-than-not a University degree, which are incidentally harder to get under the SNP government if you come from a poorer background. But no. Protect the middle class voters kids in your budget, whatever you do. Don’t piss off the middle class voters. Or the lower class for that matter. Just promise them the world. We’ll figure out how it’s going to be paid for later.

*disclaimer – I’m a broadsheet-reading armchair chancellor

Swinney said council tax would (yet again) be frozen for 2016-2017. That’s in the future when I come from.

You changed tack after I pointed out that according to the Scottish Parliament Research Centre the council tax freeze has cost the Scottish government £2.5 billion and has resulted in overfunding.

Up to that point you wanted to talk about the last 9 years, which I’m sure isn’t the future even where you come from.

Just to remind you :

The Flying Ox – Member

What is utterly unforgivable is the stupid, ridiculous 9-year freeze on council tax rises. A 12 year old could tell you that stuff costs more now than it did 9 years ago, so why the insistence on strangling council budgets? Who benefits from this? Middle class folk who get their groceries delivered and so don’t travel on public transport, rarely require help from social services, and get their bins cleaned weekly by some entrepreneur or other. Who are the ones who suffer most from this? The poorest of the community, the ones the SNP claim to be the party of.

You now want to talk about the budget and its possible implications for the future.

The Flying Ox – Member

The Scottish Government have had the ability to adjust income tax by +/- 3% since 1998

A power carefully designed to make it unusable for increases, because it can’t be used to tune rates- it can only increase/decrease all rates by the same amount. The entire purpose of the policy was to be able to say “we devolved this but they don’t use it”. Remains to be seen what happens once they’re given useful powers to be fair, I’ve a feeling they’ll bottle it. Different rates within a single country has some major issues.

On the subject of the council tax freeze- people often seem unaware (or pretend to be unaware) that it’s been almost exactly matched by the additional funding from central government. And that at the same time the centralisation of fire and police has taken that burden off councils.

The settlement has meant that councils are actually better off than they would have been if they’d increased council tax by rpi. And council’s share of scottish spending is nearly identical to what it was before the freeze.

Meanwhile, south of the border, they’re halfway through a 40% cut to council budgets.