But it is not a choice which inconveniences others (unless you are a fatto or smell of poo

That depends on your definition of “inconvenience”.

I don’t recall anyone on here demanding tolerance. The most vehement of posters was me, and all said was, when the kids are moaning keep your nose out. The rest is just conjecture, or inability to read, on everyone else’s part about my “attitude”. Boblo, I enver told you or anyone else to be tolerant, that is again your choice of being creative with the interpretation so as to take offence.

As to posting on forums what you think about kids on planes I have no issue. I hate it myself, and the one time I brought my own kid I hated it. But I think it’s fine and if you don’t or can’t tolerate it that’s fine. I would just ask, once again, if your on a plane, and you can’t tolerate the kids keep your opinions to yourself.

I was sat next to a fella coming back from Frankfurt on Wednesday, who snored loudly the whole way back
I gave him a few digs & he stopped, only to start again minutes later

Hmmm … I was wondering where I got bruised ribs 🙁

So long as your child isn’t one that’ll be loud and annoying then it wouldn’t be a problem for me as another passenger. It’s when they start crying and screaming that I can’t deal with it.

It’s when they start crying and screaming that I can’t deal with it.

Best stay home, mate – it’s a tough world out there.

Toys – how many posters missed your point?

All the ones who are busy getting mileage out of trying to berate me. It’s remarkably unedifying how many people on here cannot read.

And you should be able to exercise it without fear or favour… You should reasonably expect an environment that is safe, comfortable, clean etc. Not littered with parents ‘demanding’ tolerance for little Johny’s latest indiscretion.

Not on private air transport, unless your contract with the airline includes that. You could, perhaps, argue that in business or first that is the case, but if you’re flying to Malaga on holiday it definitely doesn’t.

I’m very happy to choose to tolerate, I strongly object to being told to be tolerant (oh the irony).

It was me who demanded toleration.I can fully understand getting pissed off with a baby crying, I would too, but human society needs children to survive. You want to form part of society, you put up with kids.

human society needs children to survive

Does it?

I think nearly 7 bn of us eating ourselves out of planet and home is quite enough actually

even before I had kids I always found it quite entertaining watching stressy passengers getting more and more wound up by kids making noise. if one of them is dumb enough to make a comment about it out loud it often gets very entertaining from a spectators point of view. 😀

DrJ – Member
That depends on your definition of “inconvenience”.

Indeed, and my definition of it does tend to change about 7-8 hours into a 13 hour flight when my facial expression tends to become one approaching this:

At that point, having a matchbox car smashed into your ankle bone or the cord on your headphones tugged by a little hand becomes rather less appealing. As do the telling offs the mother gives to her darling cherub:

Oh do stop being silly, Tarquin. That man doesn’t want your mucus covered hand in his eyeball.

even before I had kids I always found it quite entertaining watching stressy passengers getting more and more wound up by kids making noise. if one of them is dumb enough to make a comment about it out loud it often gets very entertaining from a spectators point of view.

Yes- my experience of this was about 20 years ago as a 20 ish single guy. V pretty single mum with baby who was wailing. Two middle aged mums who were fed up with their husbands talking and making eyes at the pretty single girl, verbally laid into her for having such an unruly child. In the end I stood in the aisle overlooking her seat chatting away to her and babe whilst these two harridans tried to butt in over my shoulder. Eventually the BA staff came and moved the tossers to different part of the plane. My “heroics” went unrewarded unfortunately.

The one time I flew with my 4 month old she didn’t moan once, but we had knockers on tap..

Taking a young child on holiday has surely got to be a selfish act though, hasn’t it? I mean, what does a 4month old get out of a holiday to Majorca, Morzine or Minnesota? Not a lot I imagine, except maybe some discomfort during the flight. Yes, I think I may be trolling now.

toys19 – Member

<snip> but we had knockers on tap..

Blimey, BA have improved their inflight catering 🙂

toys19 – Member
I don’t recall anyone on here demanding tolerance.

mogrim – Member

Because having children is a necessary part of maintaining a society, and it’s therefore reasonable to demand a little toleration BECAUSE HOLIDAYS ARE SO VITAL

There you go (I might have edited one of the quotes 🙂 ), HTH.

I don’t berate.

I don’t complain.

I don’t have a problem with children on planes, though I’d rather not sit next to one when on long flights if it were particularly noisy/active .

I do take exception to being told I have to defer to the rights of parents who are propagating the continuation of the species as if it were some personal favour to me.

Fair enough and mogrim pointed it out above, missed that. Guess what, he’s right. I don’t give a damn if you don’t like being told to be tolerant. Based on your responses you need to be more tolerant.

Aaah, so in your tolerant way, you’re telling me to be tolerant?

That’s the irony I find so, errr, ironic. Well done. Ta.

I do take exception to being told I have to defer to the rights of parents who are propagating the continuation of the species as if it were some personal favour to me.

Like to see who’s going to pay your pension (or produce your food, wipe your a…) if people stop having kids!

I said a little toleration – not complete toleration. It’s a two-way thing, some of the people on this thread don’t seem to understand that.

And you and your parenting ilk taking their holidays forms what part in the survival of the species, paying pensions etc?

That’s the irony I find so, errr, ironic.

I know its funny isn’t it!

And you and your parenting ilk taking holidays forms what part in the survival of the species, paying pensions etc?

What makes your “right” to go on holiday take precedence over mine?
Kids moan, its a fact of life, just because you get on a plane doesn’t change that in anyway. Like I said the airline companies seem to think it’s ok. Do you want to know why? Because families go on holiday, they spend money. In fact airlines are so into it they let infants on aeroplanes for free, how galling that must be for you child haters. That is irony.

As a westerner, having children is one of the worst things you can do for the planet in environmental terms. Probably.

I do take exception to being told I have to defer to the rights of parents who are propagating the continuation of the species as if it were some personal favour to me.

Really? That’s unfortunate for you, because, at the end of the day, you do have to defer to other people’s rights. That’s what “rights” are.

In fact airlines are so into it they let infants on aeroplanes for free, how galling that must be for you child haters. That is irony.

You forgot the cheaper seats for older kids, and the early boarding.

OK, I’m trolling now too 🙂

Toys, Toys, Toys, <sigh>

The whole premise of this thread is that parents rights automatically trump everyone elses as they are altruistically looking after our future (ironically whilst killing the planet going on holiday). As you so eloquently stated, anyone who complains about this is a See You Next etc…

I don’t want precedence over anyone else, equality would be nice though I’m not planning to scream my head off or smear my poo anywhere in the First Class cabin anytime soon.

DrJ – Member

Really? That’s unfortunate for you, because, at the end of the day, you do have to defer to other people’s rights. That’s what “rights” are.

So where does deference end and subjugation begin?

So lets just check, you agree that anyone who complains to a parent, during a flight, about the kid crying or moaning is wrong?

So where does deference end and subjugation begin?

junction 14 of the m25?

Well… you justify the choice of taking young children on planes because the airlines allow it. Surely the airlines allow passenges to air their grievances with each other too?

The whole premise of this thread is that parents rights automatically trump everyone elses as they are altruistically looking after our future (ironically whilst killing the planet going on holiday). As you so eloquently stated, anyone who complains about this is a See You Next etc…

Actually, the whole premise of the thread was someone asking if flying with a 4mth old baby from the UK to Lanzarote was achievable. It degenerated from there when the rest of us decided to join in and start arguing. I can only surmise we are equally bored at work.

Well… you justify the choice of taking young children on planes because the airlines allow it. Surely the airlines allow passenges to air their grievances with each other too?

Of course, and complaining is perfectly justified if little “Tarquin” (nice straw child argument there) is sticking his “poo covered finger” in someone’s ear and the parent in question isn’t doing anything about it. Noone said it wasn’t. Complaining about babies crying is a different matter, though, unless the parents of said child are obviously doing nothing about it.

toys19 – Member
So lets just check, you agree that anyone who complains to a parent, during a flight, about the kid crying or moaning is wrong?

Ironically (word of the day children), I don’t care!

I wouldn’t complain about a child unless they were behaving unreasonably directly with me and the parent should be doing something about it (e.g. throwing their food on me or hitting me – that sort of thing). I’d ask the parent (nicely) if they could have the child desist. Similarly, I wouldn’t take to task someone else that did complain. That’s up to them, they have rights….

There’s usually not much a parent can do to quieten a child if they’ve a real paddy on though I think it’s reasonable to question travel for the very young. Not neccesarily for the others passengers sake, more for the childs as I imagine it could be quite distressing/bewildering.

My position is that my (or other passengers) rights/comfort etc should not be automatically subjugated to parents, unruly passengers, fatties, smellies etc. We all have paid our money to enjoy the delights of modern air travel in comfort etc. No one has a ‘right’ to interfere with that.

Phew.

But complaining about babies crying is ‘allowed’, isn’t it?

But complaining about babies crying is ‘allowed’, isn’t it?

futile, but feel free

human society needs children to survive
Does it?

I think nearly 7 bn of us eating ourselves out of planet and home is quite enough actually

If no-one had kids then human society wouldn’t last long would it?

Plus, any one of those kids might be the one who figures out how to produce limitless free energy on earth or feed the world. Or write the novel that makes everyone stop and think, and start being nice to each other.

Anyway. The problem isn’t with kids on planes it’s with poorly behaved kids on planes or unhappy babies. Plenty of poorly behaved adults on planes too tbh.

We all have paid our money to enjoy the delights of modern air travel in comfort etc

No, you’ve paid for a seat. I don’t think the terms and conditions of carriage say anything about comfort or isolation from any annoyance created by the other passengers.

But complaining about babies crying is ‘allowed’, isn’t it?

Yes, likewise complaining about the weather, but suggesting it is someone’s “fault” is (largely) silly.

DrJ – Member

“I do take exception to being told I have to defer to the rights of parents who are propagating the continuation of the species as if it were some personal favour to me.”

Really? That’s unfortunate for you, because, at the end of the day, you do have to defer to other people’s rights. That’s what “rights” are.

actually you have the right to do things so long as it does not impinge or incionvenience anyone else – and you don’t have the right to take you rkids on hoilday

Holidays are not a right – they are a privilege

Its far closer to the mark that I have the right to go about my lawful business without your brat screaming in my ear. Your brat does not have the right to scream in my ear

However – I shall just continue to wear my earplugs so I can ignore the disease infested, foul, biting, poomaking things ( or is that dogs? I do get confused) 🙂

futile

like arguing with new parents

Molgrips, You keep linking the survival of our species with the need to take an annual holiday. I can’t see the link, perhaps I’m a bit dim.

Keep mis-reading this thread as “taking a 4 month old to a fight”.

actually you have the right to do things so long as it does not impinge or incionvenience anyone else – and you don’t have the right to take you rkids on hoilday

Holidays are not a right – they are a privilege

Quite. You don’t have a right to go on holiday, either.

Its far closer to the mark that I have the right to go about my lawful business without your brat screaming in my ear. Your brat does not have the right to scream in my ear

Don’t know about that, kids aren’t dogs. Kids cry, it happens. You go to a park on a sunny day and there will be kids playing, shouting, crying – I doubt very much that you have a right to expect silence there, either.

Holidays are not a right – they are a privilege

TJ – as a union spokesman 😉

I would have thought you’d subscribe to the position that holidays were hard fought for & won rights for the working man – just a thought 🙂