Or they warned in Turkish, or on an alternative frequency, or both.

I’d considered the alternative frequency, I hadn’t considered a language issue.

I assume the international language of aviation ultimatums is English, were both sides fluent?

The Russian pilot says there were no warnings. Obviously the truth is either….

The Russian pilot also says that he didn’t enter Turkish airspace.

Whatever the truth most people seem to agree that if the Russian plane did indeed enter Turkish airspace it was only for a matter of a few seconds, it certainly did not pose any threat at all to Turkey.

The incident was not an act of self-denfense by Turkey but a political motivated act. It was presumably design to halt the growing rapprochement between NATO and Russia over ISIS and further Turkey’s personal agenda with regards to the Syrian Civil War.

I don’t think there is any evidence that the incident was orchestrated by the Kremlin as excuse “before they unleash the Black Sea fleet”, whatever that means.

How big is Turkey’s Military!

I thought they were all about dancing in skirts, kebabs and cheap holidays – seems they’ve got 300 or so F16s, 13 Subs, 100 mobile missile launchers, the big ones that look a bit like tanks, not a dude with a tube on his shoulder and a bunch of armed drones.

I assume the international language of aviation ultimatums is English, were both sides fluent?

All communications between NATO planes is in English, at least it should be. I would expect Turkish pilots to communicate in English between themselves, at least some of the time. I certainly wouldn’t expect them to communicate in any language other than English to a foreign pilot.

You know there might have been a technical glitch with coms or he was on a different frequency by mistake/coincidence.

So it is feasible this was just a FUBAR mistake.

Turkey isn’t battle-tested is it? There will be a retaliation. I imagine there are alot of ground to air shoulder launchers being despatched to the region right now by Russia.

How big is Turkey’s Military!

Second largest army in Nato.

Turkey isn’t battle-tested is it?

Most of the Russian Black Sea Fleet would sink before it got within firing distance of Turkey so I reckon the Turks would still stand a chance.

The incident was not an act of self-denfense by Turkey

Agree fully – even if they did clip the bottom corner of Turkish airspace for a few seconds, there was no identifiable threat, and they were clearly not on a course that would take them deeper into Turkish airspace – no way was the response proportionate.

IIRC Turkey are a signatory to the ECHR, so article 2 would clearly prohibit such a disregard to right to life in the absence of an identifiable threat.

I want to see dog fights between Turks’ OEM F-16 and Sukhoi Su-35.

See how effective is Sukhoi against F-16 flown by Turkish pilots.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzZ1ORjSjk[/video]

chip – Member

That’s F-14 vs F-5E innit!

timidwheeler – Member
The Syrians have remade Spinal Tap?

Why is the Cyprus Hill bloke doing there? Insane in the membrane?

Even Turkey’s version shows idiotic response by them. 17 seconds clearly passing over narrow spur of land. Its not hard to do that in error – a quick tweak left and you’re entirley over Syria

Seems a bit disproportionate doesn’t it jamba?

Turkey isn’t battle-tested is it?

Haven’t they been fighting Kurds for years in quite a significant war?

The Turk has fired and the missile not struck the Russian till he’s back in Syria. Trigger happy and it will be expensive for Turkey and the Turkmen

I can find my car using google earth but it isn’t there now and in fact hasn’t been there for years.
From recollection I disagree a lot with Tom’s opinions and politics but his factual analysis seems well informed.
The Russian’s beat the Germans because they had better kit and bigger numbers . German technical superiority was very much theoretical the vast majority of their supply and main units were horse drawn their tanks though well designed were unreliable and few in number they were also slow to build . like Napoleon Germany also failed to appreciate the scale on the undertaking or the severity of winter.
The American army is vast and equipped with quality functioning kit. Unlike 1930s Germany the USA is a very big country with significant resources.
Any way despite my strong dislike of Putin he plays geopolitics with skill (but no ethics) I doubt he will slide into war with a NATO power over this but he will use the incident to wrestle a lot of room to manoeuvre in Syria.

Thanks Crankboy, I don’t really believe my own politics anyway and I don’t like ascribing to a set world view (eg left vs right). I like anyone with a good opinion, even if it’s not my own, that is backed up with some reasoning….and then I like arguing with that person 🙂 If very few people here like my politics, it’s simply because I can’t help playing the contrarian.

Anyway, I’m going to quote a line in a Guardian comment that made me laugh. “Let’s keep the present trend in supported ignorance going, pretty soon the morons will only be able to utter their shallow and incredibly ill considered vitriolic opinions through a series of short form chicken scratches, because they’ll be incapable of even stringing a few coherent sentences together to form an argument.”

The world would be more peaceful if people took the time to understand conflict and politics a little more.

Tom_W1987 – Member
…The world would be more peaceful if people took the time to understand conflict and politics a little more.

Or if the heroic keyboard warriors on each side met in pitched battle with sharp implements, the rest of us could get on with our peaceful lives.

If this is real (from the wikileaks twitter), then Turkey need to remember that the first rule of lying is to get your story straight. Quite damning. Less than 1 mile inside Turkey for 17 seconds and they shot it down. It may be true that the Russian pilots ignored 10 warnings over 5 minutes if for most of those 5 mins they were inside Syrian airspace.

I suppose Turkey could argue they were warning them to change course before entering and once they did then shot them after having given several warnings

The Syrian Air force has its own SU24s so they could say it was a potential threat

the russians do have a history of ignoring warnings

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11609783/Mapped-Just-how-many-incursions-into-Nato-airspace-has-Russian-military-made.html

on the other hand Erdogan seems to be a right tosser so I wouldnt put it past him doing it all on purpose

seems like the russians are in for a bit of tit for tat and are moving in s400 missile systems into theatre. Has an operational range of upto 400 km, when the Syrian rebels and is have no planes who are they going to be targeting ? 🙄

who are they going to be targeting ?

NATO planes that attack them, would be a reasonable hunch to me. Have you got any other suggestions?

atlaz – Member

If this is real (from the wikileaks twitter), then Turkey need to remember that the first rule of lying is to get your story straight. Quite damning. Less than 1 mile inside Turkey for 17 seconds and they shot it down.

Where do you think the lie is, or the inconsistency? This seems to be exactly what they’ve said all along and none of it seems to have been shown to be untrue

Here’s an interesting claim by Turkey :

Turkish military says did not know downed jet was Russian

If you believe that you’ll believe anything.

@ernie I think there is a decent chance they thought it was Syrian, same aircraft used by them and Turks have shot one down before

I don’t think the Turks have been lying,the letter quite clearly backs up their story what the Russian planes where in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. It’s clear from their own maps what the Russian planes where just “clipping” the narrow strip of Turkey which sticks out. An encroachment by a mile and for 17 seconds which in a jet is nothing but we always knew that.

Russian action so far (that we know about)

Their most advanced air to air missiles are now on station
A missile ship with advanced ship to air missiles is now on station
Russian fighters will now shadow their bombers offering protection
Russia has imposed various financial sanctions inc cancelling a $20bn joint power project
Russia has stopped the sale of any holidays to Turkey
Russia has reimposed visa restrictions on Turkish travellers

Just thinking, knowing how history repeats itself, I wonder if there ever was a period when it was kicking off in the Crimea, and the Turks and Russians were on opposite sides?

Where’s the Light Brigade? 🙂

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35130953

chinny reckon!

😆

Indeed, what a surprise 😕

Where’s the Light Brigade?

chinny reckon!

You have got to admire their brass. They couldn’t care less how it looks. If information doesn’t suit them, it’s a stern look and a “nyet”.

They couldn’t care less how it looks.

I think they only care how it looks to their own Russian people and network.
How the rest of the world see’s them is irrelevant. What are we going to do, invade?