Just finished Hadrians wall, sustrans route 72. Over the weekend we only met one other group doing the route.. got me wondering why sustrans routes don’t seem very popular. These routes are the jewel in the crown of the uk. Plenty of off roading or add on bit for MTB.

They’re not very popular with me 😉

I do value the creation of the cycle network, but where they stand opposed to rail reinstatement they are actually blocking sustainable transport – which needs to include a mix of travel modes

I love them for touring, well marked and easy gravel style off road. But if you read many post by bike tourists they seem not to as the routes are not all tarmaced.

I use one on my commute and I am now accustomed to it but while i am happy to tour on it the unsurfaced nature does make the commute tougher, I expect I. The winter it would put people off, it definitely reduces my commuting range.

They are stuck for funding unfortunately, lots of the routes unfortunately have missing links and negotiation to join them up probably take priority.

Over the weekend we only met one other group doing the route

Its October

Are they the ones that surface cycle routes with sharp stones the size of golf balls?

the PBW/MTL is an excellent example of money thrown at projects in staggering quantities and now several years on neglect and apathy have taken their toll on the infrastructure. much of the hard surface has had undergrowth encroach to the extant that its covered in places and virtually all the wooden signposting has rotted to the point of boards etc missing or illegible at best..no point paying a lot of money for something if its not looked after..

Yeah, not very popular with me either.

To be useful they either need to make sure they are clean, smooth tarmac OR clearly mark which sections are in what condition.

I’d have no confidence at all setting off to follow an unknown sustrans route on anything other less than a CX bike with beefy tyres on.

Only really used them with the family (touring doesn’t light my fire), down in the south west annoyingly anti MX gates made it a nightmare with the kids trailer in tow!
Seemed well used in the summer tho

We’ve used hundreds and hundreds of miles of Sustrans routes for touring and found them almost without exception to be very good indeed. I can’t see how a signed route on minor roads and cycle paths can be blocking sustainable transport either..?

Sustrans seem to have adopted a ‘well it’s better than nothing’ approach to approval of proposed cycle routes and infrastructure.

Bez of this Parish has waxed lyrical about it;

e.g.

see also;

https://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/tag/sustrans/

Personally, I think Sustrans are too willing to compromise on both surface and safety just to be able to say ‘look we’ve linked X and Y’.

I read somewhere (many years ago) that something like 40% of the sustrans cycle paths i.e. not the way marked minor roads bits, were ex rail routes.

Thats why they are blocking sustainable transport, well, not sustainable, integrated is probably a better word.

Admittedly a lot of the ex rail routes can’t be reclaimed, but i’m sure many of them can…….

Personally, I think Sustrans are too willing to compromise on both surface and safety just to be able to say ‘look we’ve linked X and Y’.

My experience too. I used to live about 1/4 of a mile from a sustrans route that would have spat me out in the car park of where i was working at the time. I reckon i used it about 3 times in the 4 months i was working there. Once going there on my first day and coming home twice, once when i’d forgotten lights, the other time when i was on my way home from a few drinks at christmas.

Other than that, it was safer, easier and more pleasant to ride on the road.

but i’m sure many of them can……

I agree but don’t hold your breath.

They won’t even open up old statins on existing lines.

A few years ago I was looking at house options in Gloucestershire, for a job in Bristol. There was pressure to reopen an old station at Charfield, that would make a massive difference to the area and allow a lot of people to commute by train. 7 years later still nothing.

Car is King.

agghhhh

& agghhhhh

despite these horrors it is a great set of cycle routes. When we did the C2C a few years ago in the summer there was loads of people. I use them all the time, virtually every ride as there’s plenty of Canals round here.

I think a lot of people are ready to criticise something they don’t completely understand.

The majority of routes on old railway lines (nowhere near 40% of the ncn btw) include covenants which mean Sustrans have to allow it to be used as a railway if the government desire in the future. I’ve never actually heard of Sustrans blocking such a scheme. They did object to parts of the Bristol to Bath railway path being used for a bus rapid transit route, but that’s because it was ill thought out and badly planned rather than removing the use of the path (in fact the plans would have allowed cyclists/peds to still use a segregated section).

As for maintenance of routes, that’s almost always the responsibility of the local highways department. Cf. potholes and the general state of the roads.

Wrt to access issues, sustrans don’t actively support motor cycle barriers but take a pragmatic approach – is it preferable that no path is built rather than one with reduced access?

Anyway, given the state of funding I’m not sure Sustrans will be about in their current form for much longer.

(Disclosure: I used to work for them as one of the few engineers in the organisation. Imo they get a lot of ire which should instead be directed to council highway departments and generally do a pretty good job given the lack of money they have)

it was safer, easier and more pleasant to ride on the road.

Easier maybe. But safer? How?

I really like using Sustans traffic free routes when they are available. They can be variable mind.

There was one that went through Port Glasgow that was a nightmare, broken glass everywhere, 3 punctures in one commute, even with “armoured” tyres. Schwalbe marathon Plus and carrying through some sections, was the only option.

I commute along a Sustran route every morning. It’s a cycle path which existed long before Sustran did, yet they now claim credit for it and are endlessly hanging around on it trying to get people to join them. The irony is they hang around next to a bridge (which is part of ‘their’ route) on which cycling is banned.

Pretty much sums up what I think of them..

I’ve used some Sustrans routes – in fact the route from home in Balerno to office in Livingston had one pretty much door to door. The problem with that route was that it was quite indirect and used some really rough tracks so wasn’t suitable for a road bike. That meant I occasionally used it when I wasn’t in a hurry but didn’t use any of it when commuting on the road bike.

I used to volunteer at Sustrans , did my Masters thesis with them and then worked with them a lot after entering the ‘real word’

When they started they did absolutely wonderful work with raising the profile of cycling in uk when it was at its lowest ebb I think. But over the last few years I think they have lost a fair deal of relevance , particularly when it comes to actually building infrastructure . They have also suffered greatly from cuts. Their education programme is very good still (safer routes to schools , walking bus, cycle training and so on)

Edit : what pjt201 said

Easier maybe. But safer? How?

Well I did get shot at by a kid with an air rifle towards the end of the C2C 🙂
I quite like some of the Sustrans routes but really I’m not their main constituency. Offroad I’m looking for something more scenic or more challenging. Ex railway routes tend to suffer from long stretches of cuttings with no views. I’m also happy enough riding on the road with a fairly well developed numpty filter. Most people aren’t (and that’s not meant to sound smug) – their routes are a useful stepping stone to gaining confidence.

Easier maybe. But safer? How?

Fewer pedestrians and dogs wandering haphazardly all over the road, usually 🙂

(nowhere near 40% of the ncn btw)

This would have been in the early 90s. So no idea which bit it referred to, could have just been sustrans routes within the county, or this specific sustrans route.

Easier maybe. But safer? How?

Deep swamps if it rained, broken surfaces all the time, random people wandering about on it, people who couldn’t work out whether to ride on the left, the right, the middle or just randomly switch between them, dog walkers (mostly with the dog off the lead as we were “in the countryside”) all made for an “exciting” experience. Even on a cross bike.

By comparison the 8 or 10 miles of fairly well surfaced and illuminated, moderately quiet B roads between work and home with minimal junctions and street furniture was pleasant and far less likely to result in me skating down the road on my face.

Anyway, given the state of funding I’m not sure Sustrans will be about in their current form for much longer.

Yes, things have changed. Feels to me like its a critical time for Sustrans – the original driver (The £40M lottery funding) has been spent and the NCN as a whole is a mature network now. Malcolm Shepherd (former Sustrans CEO) has retired and I get the sense that there’s some head scratching now about exactly what Sustrans is aiming to do. We’ve got a new CEO formerly of TfL (Xavier Brice) who I’m sure will want to make a difference and develop a new direction. Funding will be a massive challenge – there have been some shake ups internally already and my guess is there’s more to come. Its anyone’s guess what the new steady state will look like.

TM

I read somewhere (many years ago) that something like 40% of the sustrans cycle paths i.e. not the way marked minor roads bits, were ex rail routes.

Thats why they are blocking sustainable transport, well, not sustainable, integrated is probably a better word.

Admittedly a lot of the ex rail routes can’t be reclaimed, but i’m sure many of them can…….

You only need one house built across what used to be lines 50 years ago and the whole route is all pretty much banjaxed. Between towns and villages you’ve got a relic of the the old line which is a fairly level grade and you might be lucky and still have some bridges over roads and waterways – ideal for a cycle path between towns. But in most instances when those old route reach the towns they link the route has pretty much been built over. So while 95% of the route might be clear to reinstate its the 5% actually in the towns the routes link that makes the whole route unfeasible to reinstate as rail.

I have not heard of them blocking reinstalling railway lines, probably because i have only heard of one line ever being reinstated!

I also think getting the connectionsions in is important as one of the major problems with bike infrastructure is the number of deAd ends and missing links. Got to have the routes to be able to improve the surface. To be fair the surface is usually fine in the summer but I agree not great on a 23 mm tyres road bike, but I don’t think they are the place for fast training and definitely not for chain gangs.

Some of the infrastructure is very good indeed, but most of it is complete toss: indirect, poorly-surfaced and littered with obstacles.

jekkyl – Member

agghhhh

& agghhhhh

despite these horrors it is a great set of cycle routes. When we did the C2C a few years ago in the summer there was loads of people. I use them all the time, virtually every ride as there’s plenty of Canals round here.
The restrictor gates are a ballache alright. TPT Manchester to Liverpool is littered with them – lucky to get 1k of clear riding.

Are they just there to stop motorcycling? Not much of a deterrent really, seems like the type of whopper who wants to teararse around sustrans trails will find a way to do so – like lifting the motorbike over the horsey box thing.

They do waste a lot of cash though.

Very near me they spent months last year and lots of cash improving an old rail bridge on the old Helmshore line. They’ve cut back the trees and raised the parapet for safety, and resurfaced. Great.

But they’ve got to the other side of the bridge and stopped. So you can ride across, turn around at the eyesore temporary fence and come back.

Why go to the bother of doing half a job? What’s the benefit?

Those restrictor gates pretty much block any utility bike from the whole network.

Fun fact: Sustrans’ first major route, the Bristol-Bath Railway Path, now carries more people on foot or bike than it ever did as a railway.

I like Sustrans, in general. They’ve achieved a lot in a country that simply doesn’t throw the same amount of funding at cycling and walking as, say, HS2, or converting A-roads to dual carriageway.

In the UK, they’re the organisation that successfully presents cycling as a transport and recreation option for everyone. Women and children riding. No special clothing. If cycling’s ever going to be taken up widely, it can’t be represented by helmets and hi-viz, or people in skinsuits holding up Olympic medals.

Their main failing seems to have been failure to introduce decent minimum design standards for new infrastructure. My feeling is that they’re holding off doing this, as it would mean much less new infrastructure getting built.

Sustrans Cycle-Friendly Design Manual (Part 1)

I used to use Route 6 to get from Sheffield to Rovrum every day. It was much better than the road route, went along the canal and the river, and even through a wild flower reserve. It wasn’t perfect but it was good

simply doesn’t throw the same amount of funding at cycling and walking as, say, HS2

HS2 is costing £150 million per mile.

You’d get a fairly decent cycle path for that sort of spend per mile.

But they’ve got to the other side of the bridge and stopped. So you can ride across, turn around at the eyesore temporary fence and come back.
Why go to the bother of doing half a job? What’s the benefit?

Lack of money. Donate. I do.

Lack of money. Donate. I do.

I did donate. But I’m feeling a bit jaded about what they piddle money away on at the moment.

Why spend money to no benefit? If they pushed on the extra 600m it’d be a job well done, money well spent. Currently it isn’t. It’s a white elephant.

It’s pretty enough, but pointless. That money could have had a better use elsewhere.

So for each mile of HS2, we could build 27 Hovenrings.

Spectacular New Floating Cycle Roundabout

So while 95% of the route might be clear to reinstate its the 5% actually in the towns the routes link that makes the whole route unfeasible to reinstate as rail.

They could compulsorily purchase those – they aren’t afraid of doing it for HS2 are they?

I want them to reinstate the Merthyr-Brecon route. They could even send the Taff trail up the Bryn Ore tramway, and it’d be better. Win/win.

I don’t really get the moaning about the surfaces. Yes, they make the going a bit slower, but if they’re cheaper to build/maintain then that’s got to be a good compromise. Even the worst are easily traversable on an MTB/cross bike/hybrid which covers just about everyone who’s going to be using them as who’s going to buy a skinny-tyred bike except a serious roadie (who will quite rightly be staying as far away from Sustrans routes as possible!)

I don’t really get the moaning about the surfaces. Yes, they make the going a bit slower, but if they’re cheaper to build/maintain then that’s got to be a good compromise.

Yes, when I’m out riding with the kids or commuting to work what I want to do is get covered in filthy water. Having said that, there’s little danger of me riding them with the kids as the stupid gates mean I can’t get the trailer through.

where they stand opposed to rail reinstatement they are actually blocking sustainable transport

I think Sustrans do a lot wrong, but I don’t think they’ve either the will or the power to stop railways being reopened!

They build stuff that’s not bad for cycle touring. But it’s not really about sustainable transport if the ‘route’ just ends any time it reaches a built up area, which is exactly where they should be focusing. 66% of journeys in the UK are under 5 miles in distance, which means they’re mostly within towns rather than between them. Putting some gravel down on an abandoned railway might make for a reasonable route for an Sunday afternoon potter to nowhere in particular, but if I want to get from a busy place where I live to a busy place where I work, Sustrans only provide any infrastructure where I don’t really need it. And provide nothing where it would be most useful.

Round here the “NCN” is a loose gravel track with needless curves added at the bottom of hills. Then you ride along the edge of a field full of cows. The cows like standing on the path rather than the boggy field, so a couple of times I’ve had to turn back and ride a mile and a half in the wrong direction to get onto a road to get around the cows. Then you reach a town and the NCN kind of fizzles out. It’s on the map but I can’t figure out where it actually is on the ground. Then you get out of town to a 50mph road. The “National Cycle Network” here is just a dashed line at the edge of the road, except where there’s nothing at all.

The footnote to all of that, of course, is that safe cycling infrastructure shouldn’t be provided by a charity, it should be built as a matter of course by the same people who build the rest of our transport infrastructure.

Yes, when I’m out riding with the kids or commuting to work what I want to do is get covered in filthy water. Having said that, there’s little danger of me riding them with the kids as the stupid gates mean I can’t get the trailer through.

mudguards? slow down for puddles? I commute virtually every weekday all year round along a pretty damn ropey Sustrans off-road route which gets extremely muddy/waterlogged at times but never really have a problem.

Agree with you about the gates, they are a real pain for some bikes & I’ve had to help loads of people carry their trailers over them! Thinking positively though, the “trailer stage” is only going to be for a few years, then they’re on their own bikes so it’s not a problem any more.