Evening all. Just wanting some ideas here for a cost effective fix for my mates 2006 SC Heckler frame. He wanted to give it a spruce up (because he loves this bike) so another friend took it to be stripped and anodised. I then stuck in a new SC pro-pack, we also have a near new kashima fox shock too…it was going to be spanking for him.

The result is this:

Then I went to stick a Hope headset in there…loose top and bottom, very loose. Infact it rattles! I think the retards who shot blasted it have eaten away the inside of the headtube. I personally always leave an old headset in, but I learned the hard way before.

My immediate thought was get a steel VERY deep headset, so found one for him and he bought it. Unfortunately that’s no better, the headtube isn’t like most frames it has raised parts inside the tube for the friction fit so the deep headset made no difference.

So, my few ideas…
-remove material from the inside of the tube to get it ‘smooth’ from end to end, then machine a tube to fit tight inside the frame (probably only 1mm if that thicker than the headset cups) and the headset press tight into that. Nothing fancy like Argos cycles (about a £100+ fix which isn’t worth it) but just to get everything tight again.

Or

– have a decent TIG welder in work weld some cups into the frame..I know radical but we are desperate… He has little to no money and just wants to ride!

Or

– have some oversized (by the calculated amount) headset cups made. I could probably get some crude ones done in work.

Any other ideas/thoughts on the above?

Thanks all!

Don’t weld a plate in, just bob a couple of blobs of weld in place then machine to the correct dia

This does totally ignore any heat treatment issues

I’d look at sleeveing the headtube. Machine/grind out the headtube, Bond the some sleeves in and voila. If you can get the sleeve machined to just undersized of 1″ 1/8 then you’ll be able to ensure its square when you do I final ream through.

Coke can shims.

Blobs of weld:

Hmm, that’s a good idea mate. Tbh I have had LOADS of DH frames welded and never had a problem if done correctly. I have a friend who works in a facility where welding to Nuclear standards is done so it is done to a very high level.

My mate also only ‘poodles’ along, never leaves the ground and barely gets over a jogging pace!

Sleeving: probably the best fix but could go wrong! I reckon this is the one to try though.

Can shims: done it before but this is far too far gone. I’d need a cans worth of alloy at each end!

See if you can get the headset cups knurled at a machine shop, has worked for me in the past.

Heres my idea……….

Try to measure the inside of the head tube to work out how much over size it is.
Then get a head set and get some press on over size sleeves made and press these onto the head set. You could make these from the head tube of a damaged (more damaged) frame. Cut off the length you need press them onto head set cups then hold cup in lathe and gently, carefully turn them down, (watch they dont fly off tho!) till just over size compared to your wonky frame. Heat wonky frame up with a hot air gun to get it to expand a bit then press your headset with sleeves into the head tube. Would probably get some loctite 648 onto the sleeves too!

betd

It’s that far gone mate there is no chance knurling would work to be honest!

Not sure I’d ride that based on what you’ve said. How badly may they have damaged the main tubes? Anyway chris king will make you one if you have accurate measurements apparently perhaps Hope would too? Or loctite 270

I can’t see getting a sleeve machined being cheap which is why I thought building it up with weld would be better

I’d suggest a good epoxy glue, worked on my old enduro with a badly flared headtube. After that Id look to modify the headset and not the frame…. I have also found some headsets shrink on fitting so dont cope well with reuse. Measure the headtube first.

Why not add material to the headset cups rather than the frame, they would be much easier to work on & it sounds as if you have the means to do it, that new deep headset you have bought sounds an ideal starting point.

Worth a go as it’s the most disposable part.

Cheers.

How much does it rattle by?

Measure the headset and the tube, if the difference is less than 0.5mm (I’d be surprised if they managed to remove more than that by blasting) then just use this to retain it

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOCTITE-660-50ml-Quick-metal-Retaining-Compound-/221143631742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item337d30077e

Good ideas all round. There’s no problem with the safety of the frame, it’s literally just the loss of ‘friction’ to hold the cups in, no other issues.

I think I have got the best idea yet from a mash up of some of the above… Cheers 2unfit2ride!

The deep headset we have is stainless…and about a 2″ insertion at each end. I’m gonna get the cups’ insertion parts welded over all the way round then turn them down to the correct size to be tight in the frame. Saves working on alloy for a start and will essentially be exactly the same as it should be, just a slightly larger headset!

There’s a Germa company that machine headset cups for this situation, but I’m struggling to remember wh they are though at this point in time, they make really nice high end hubs as well it’s not Tune though.

As a last chance saloon option, glue them in with Araldite

need a deep insertion cup headset.

if you’re feeling bling

http://chrisking.com/headsets/hds_steelset

if you’re feeling cheap

http://www.probikeshop.com/images/products2/78/2005/2005-SYNCROS-Jeu-de-Direction-FR1-11-8.jpg

both are steel and once inserted arn’t going anywhere.

I changed the forks on my dh bike a few years ago undoing to lower crown resulted in the the lower cup just falling out with it.

I fitted the syncros fr1 above and had another 3 years out of the bike

doh!!! re read the post

Aha yes http://www.reset-racing.de/presse/images/koehn_at_dirtmag_0807.pdf

Thats’ the fella the moment I posted it came to me.

Acros I believe.

It should probably go in the bin. Buy where’ the fun in that…

My suggestion would be to bond in some headset cups using Devcon aluminium or titanium loaded epoxy putty or similar.

Failing that sleeve it or try getting some oversized cups turned but I’d avoid taking a welder to it or machining more material away…

GREEBLE: as in the first post pal, I already have a 2″ insertion stainless steel headset. It doesn’t even do anything over the standard hope one due to the configuration inside the frame. Thanks anyway.

Thanks everyone else, I think we’ll try the over sizing of the steel headset we have. If that doesn’t work the custom cups is the best option.

Thanks

try a fsa pig pro headset. there about £25 and the cups are made of steel. a simple headset but are a little heavy than most headsets but are good tight fit even in worn head tubes. iv used them in the past on jump frames

Use some Loctite bearing retaining compound…

loctite site

Can’t remember which number I used (660 I think), but I fitted an FSA Orbit headset to a steel frame as the headset was ovalised with the same symptoms as your, should fill in gaps up to 0.5mm. It’s pretty much a permanent fitting, doubt you could remove the headset without damaging the frame.

fsa pig is what i was going to recommend

I would try an epoxy. Not sure which one is best though. But have you actually tried fitting the forks and a stem? Is there enoughmovement to lead to damage, or would the star nut hold everything together?

Thanks guys.

A replacement headset of ANY type (Pig etc) won’t help, it’s too worn, possibly by upto 1mm all the way round, not flared but eroded. It is still perfectly round.

I’m unsure if a retaining compound would do it due to the potentially high stress/ slight flex placement on the frame. I could try that.

In the state it’s in now, even all done up it would be line running a headset with no bearings in it…clunky and loose!

Cheers all.

A bit of car body filler round the headset would take up the slack. Not as good as getting a headset machined to the right size, but it’s cheap and cheerful.

Just going right back to the OP… It’d take a lot of effort to shotblast away that much metal and it wouldn’t normally be that localised, or very even- it’d be bizarre for hte headtube to be eroded away that much and nothing else on the frame damaged…

What ever you end up doing I’d fit one of these to hold it all together.

http://www.bikepedia.com/pa/Item.aspx?itemid=371642#.UQhTmL8gGc0

TJ saved his tandem with loctite or similar.

Low cost, what’s to lose?

There is a suitable Locktite bearing filler/ glue 660 (more like a liquid metal that sets) for this – we fit wheel bearings into race hubs which have over sized (as in racing with engines) with it, if I remember it will fill upto 0.7 mm (says .5 which is big gap but can go bigger just) it’s expensive for a little bottle £30 but way cheaper than methods above. Main thing would be to get a good spread/ fill of it around whole surface of both cups, get them in and then before it sets fit the forks to centre every thing, then leave overnight to set.
I have also set very successfully rear triangle bearings on mtbs where the bearing housing has gone well oversize.
I would choose a headset where you can easily replace the bearings as once in the cups would be a major challenge to replace.
Link to spec
http://www.loctite.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_uke/hs.xsl/fullproduct-list-loctite-4995.htm?countryCode=uke&BU=industrial&parentredDotUID=productfinder&redDotUID=1000000J02K

Northwind

Just going right back to the OP… It’d take a lot of effort to shotblast away that much metal and it wouldn’t normally be that localised, or very even- it’d be bizarre for hte headtube to be eroded away that much and nothing else on the frame damaged…

The anodising process ,which involves acid ,can do some serious erosion if done wrong.
I have had parts anodised come back smaller than they went 🙁

Although other parts of the frame would be in a poor condition also.

It is Loctite 641 or Loctite 660,which is for bigger gaps, bearing fit you need but there is a limit to how much space it will take up.

HTH

Yeah, I wondered about that though should be even more indiscriminate.

O.p. – Maybe I’m reading this all wrong – but the solution seems to me to have been suggested a while back by 2unfit2ride. Get some 1mm aluminium sheet and make shims to fit around the flanges of your headset cups then press them in. In effect you are making the flanges “thicker” so they will now have the required interfence fit to hold them in. Plus you will have an even layer of material all around the flanges so they will be centralised in the head-tube, this would be very difficult to acheieve with epoxies or filler.

if it rattles glue it in

if they’ve blasted that much material away (or disolved in acid before anodising) would you not ne worried about how tin the tubes have got and how likely it is to snap?

Hmm – I cant see how a head-tube would “snap” – especially with that big brace either side. Might deform a bit more in use though if it geniunely has been made thinner. Still think shimming the flanges is the best option.

if that much material is missing from the inside of the headtube how much is missing from the down tube, seat tube etc (have you had a seat post or seat clamp in/on it yet?)

Sell the frame on gumtree ?