We’ve just had a bit of a shock in the windsurfing community as a young up and coming international irish lad barely in his twenties has just committed suicide and although a discussion broke out I felt that forum wasn’t the place to talk especially as it was still so painful for the family, then tonight on the radio they announced record suicides amongst adult males, 6400 plus in 2011 hate to think what 2012 will be and felt it’s something that doesn’t get discussed fully.

Is it on the increase, and why are the young so often susceptible, are society pressures greater now, there was a spate not so long back in wales, getting to the point it was almost ‘recreational suicide’ on Facebook.

I don’t want to appear flippant, there must be many here who have had grievous experiences and or close calls as indeed we have, it is a terrible event for anyone to experience and one wonders what must be going through the head of those that do.

So in the hope this doesn’t develop into the usual STW argue fest I wondered if we could develop some serious input from any of the professionals on here who deal with the sharp end and of course the statisticians that can corroborate or deny the growth.

And if anyone on the brink gets swung away along the line, that of course would be a bonus.

Quite a few young lads have killed them selves around here recently, on a few hundred yards away, small shrine for him, and tonight another lad a rugby player was found dead in Manchester.

So very sad for all concerned.

Males do lock their emotions in at a certain age, its not seen as manly in certain sectors of the comunity to express your emotions, and lack of decent work, relationship issues etc dont help in the mix.

Our experience, having had two attempts by one of my close family in the last 6 years, is it has been due to intolerable mental pressure. Death is seen as the only logical way for this person to still the internal noise and despair. On both occasions the person attempting suicide has called for help once the blood has started to flow.
I desperately hope that a third attempt will not be made!

I don’t know the stat,and haven’t googled it (yet) but I’m sure I saw something recently that suggested that suicide was the single highest cause of death for young males between something like 20 and 35. I’ll check that but it struck me as a very sobering thought, not least because i’ve been up a tree with a rope before, and decided life wasn’t quite that shit.

I shall be at a funeral on Friday, friend hung himself. A lot of questions but very few answers I’m afraid.

(PS in his 40s btw)

It’s a sign of the times and not going to get better any time soon unfortunately.

Checked

3rd rank cause in the us among 15-24 year old, and 2nd for 25-34 year olds. And males are 4x more likely. And in the young, only around 0.5 – 1% success rate is a very sobering thought. So to answer the op, it’s a lot more common than you’d think. I can’t answer why though – maybe the pressures of growing up – jobs,money, relationships, etc., – without the world weariness that tells you that life is sometimes shit, but it usually passes.

My sympathies.

I drove past a suicidee (woman in early 40s) on M62, day before Xmas eve between J28 and 27. Must have been minutes after she had jumped from the bridge as no emergency services there. I remember the look on her face. So sad. 🙁

I hope this thread stays sensible, as this is a subject that I think needs talking about more widely and openly than it ever seems to.

A lad from work killed himself a few years ago and afterwards it was like he never existed. In fact people seemed somehow ashamed to acknowledge his existence. If ever his name was mentioned it would stop the room dead and you’d hear a pin drop. I’ve never known people act like it in any other situation. Very strange.

A massive issue we don’t seem very good at dealing with.

A lad from work killed himself a few years ago and afterwards it was like he never existed. In fact people seemed somehow ashamed to acknowledge his existence. If ever his name was mentioned it would stop the room dead and you’d hear a pin drop. I’ve never known people act like it in any other situation. Very strange.

Just perhaps his fellow workmates didnt see the warning signs, or mistakenly took banter and practical jokes to a level he couldnt cope with, so then its easier to blank his name out, just incase something comes out,that wasnt common knowledge.

There seem more pressures on young lads now, money ,jobs,relationships,freinds or lack of them, able to listen and ofer help and advice, or just to listen.

It doesn’t get discussed, there’s a reluctance to even talk about it, so there aint much help about to folk contemplating it either, have the young even heard of the Samaritans? Then next offer is ‘mental health counselling’ which is another pariah subject. Potential suicides are not necessarily mentally ill they’re desperate for any number of issues.

I hadn’t realised however just how many youngsters are affected, it almost never occurred in my youth, can only think of one guy I know/knew, a fellow journalist, but he always was a tad on the edge of reason, wanted to know the answer, the one religion could never really give.

Its a very emotive subject obviously – but its also part of something bigger. Suicide is one of the ways a bunch of factors can reveal themselves and if you look at why young people, or particularly young men are committing suicide you have to consider what other people are doing in the same circumstances.

Freakenomics did quite a good programme about it its worth searching through their podcasts to find it. In the US you get an interesting contrast – there white men commit suicide (but not so typically young men as you get in the uk), black men get murdered. But arguably putting yourself in harms way in order to get murdered is just as suicidal. So you need to look at a much wider picture as unhappiness expresses itself in many and varied ways – suicide, murder, criminality, victimhood, addiction, alcoholism, carelessness, recklessness. They are all part of a large cloud of outcomes for a large cloud of conditions. And that cloud is larger than the circumstances of the victims and all our actions contribute to it.

This is definitely something that needs talked about more openly.

It’s directly affected my immediate family twice – one was caught and had a happy outcome. IME once you acknowledge it, then others are far more open about their own friends and family.

I’m surprised by the assertion that it’s increasing amongst the young though? With one major caveat, the stats are hugely influenced by region. When I was growing up (in ROI) it seemed common in teenagers, now in Scotland and it seems more common in 40-ish but both rates are decreasing as far as I’m aware.

I just googled this, and initially it might appear pretty grim reading, but does have some positive points and a plan: and whatever steps are being taken, the rates overall are on their way down.
http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Suicide%20Statistics%20Report%202012.pdf

And lastly, noone should ever feel that there is only one option, there is always at least one more and lots of people you haven’t met yet to help you realise what those options are.

It’s hard to talk to people about issues you may have, without people judging you and then putting you down because of them. Also there is a fear that what you perceive as a problem will be laughed at and deemed insignificant.

I’ve felt pretty down about a few things; what has helped me has been volunteer work with singletraction and the Middleton railway, since it gave me a sense of achievement and purpose.. But that’s me and I wasn’t feeling suicidal just a bit down. I wouldn’t imagine it’s easy to pull yourself out from feeling suicidal, IMHO prevention is better than the cure; what is making people feel this way in the first place needs looking into really.

My brother-in-law hung himself two years ago shortly after my sister dumped him for another man. There were many unanswered questions, not to mention feelings of guilt.

My soon to be ex-wife counselled him the day before he died and I know this affected her greatly, because she had been convinced she was so good at helping people in this way – she did this a great deal in her job. She would never admit her failure, nor did I ever suggest/imply failure, but she felt great guilt and this was as a whole load of ugly rifts opened up within my side of the family. My wife, with her well intentioned counselling hat on, became entangled..

I tried not to get caught up in it as was battling with a very difficult work situation after a lengthy spell without work. I was just getting on with it and not trying to repeatedly rake over all the unanswerable questions.

It was inevitable that I’d cop a load of flack and got accused of all sorts, without any justification or good reason. I have a criminal psychologist friend who explained what was probably going on my wife’s head. Basically, the behaviour of my wife was an attempt at blame/guilt transference. Too much analytical jargon for the likes of me!!

My marriage was not good after three previous deaths between our respective families and suffice it to say, the marriage has now ended and I’ll soon be out on my ear.

I believe suicide rates in men are down to public attitudes towards what is acceptable behaviour for specific genders. Eg. A woman can wear her heart on her sleeve, she can scream, cry, discuss her feelings at length etc etc. She can do all of this with no,repercussion because she is viewed as “the weaker sex” and it is expected. So its green lights all round for them and everyone will make allowances/be sympathetic.

If a man behaves like this, he’ll be berated as being weak. His partner will have no patience and will swiftly end up castigating him, often mercilessly humiliating him in front of friends and family. We are strong of course, so therefore it is ok to lay in to us, we can take it (to a point, but we do actually have feelings). A man expressing his feelings and letting it all out is NOT acceptable, so we most of us shut up and put up, even when our ears are routinely bent. We manage our stresses by not talking about them and pretending they don’t exist. We busy ourselves with other things.

What sends me nuts is when women sneer at us, saying how we aren’t in touch with our emotions, how dysfunctional we men are. It’s one rule for them, and one rule for us. They are totally unsympathetic, but virtually demand sympathy when the boot is on the other foot. A rather gaping lack of empathy on the part of women. Herein lies the problem, if you want my humble opinion!

This is fun! 😆

This is a good topic to discuss..

“Mental health counselling” I’ve personally been through. My counsellor kicked me out for being unable too discuss things immediately and openly..

Since then I went too the doctors, got a referal. Another referal and then nothing since. I’ve been chasing it up for the last 12 months. My last appointment was 12/11 and they said they would be referring me for some further testing. Nothing since..

I would also like to say that in my own experience, Samaratans and the Salvation army are very eager too get your money and then ditch you when you actually need the help.

Spongebob – well in retrospect if you dont laugh then you cry. I choose the former, even if inappropriate at times.

gmex: I’m confused and a little concerned. The Sams dont take money (my sister volunteers for them) and if you need any help thats the A-1 port of call. And there are hundreds and thousands out there that help.

Wow Spongebob, you must have one hell of a disfunctional relationship with women. Can’t say I’ve ever had such experience, I mean I know there’s a general assumption that blokes just get on with stuff but if I was ever to admit it I can’t think of a single female in my life who wouldn’t listen and help. I wish you more luck in future!

As for suicide in general – I have no experience. I can’t help but think that if it happened in my work it would probably be “dropped” from conversation pretty quick though, most people get over things by dealing with them initially and then shelving them – can’t imagine why you’d want to dwell on the subject.

Wow Spongebob, you must have one hell of a disfunctional relationship with women.

No, just the one very sanctimonious conceited one I was unfortunate enough to have married! 😉

A new woman has helped me immensely in realising that my ex was more the exception than the rule (although the battle-scars remind me to be cautious).

Well that’s positive news anyway!

Hi Coffeeking. Your attitude is pretty typical, sadly.

If thousands of teens got cancer and died lots of folk would go out and shout and shake a bucket.

Realistically if a teen gets depression or any other mental illness, everyone seems to “shelve it”.

Why dwell on it? Because when it hits close to home – in reality & retropect : uncles, brothers, neighbours, friends can all notice warning signs and act on them. Or just shelve it.

My good mate at work, Dunky. Rip mate. Hope they have a pub wherever you are..
Deal with this every day at work, easier to stay detached when its someone you don’t really know. Spoke to him a coupla days before he did it, he was expected back at his work the week afterwards and although reluctant, seemed ok- will never be sure if that’s what tipped him over the edge.

What sends me nuts is when women sneer at us, saying how we aren’t in touch with our emotions, how dysfunctional we men are. It’s one rule for them, and one rule for us. They are totally unsympathetic, but virtually demand sympathy when the boot is on the other foot. A rather gaping lack of empathy on the part of women. Herein lies the problem, if you want my humble opinion!

Don’t stick us all in the same boat-not all women are the same, just like not all men are the same.

Someone who’s husband was a psychiatrist specialising in suicide told me once that death rates are always very high amongst young males, a combination of changing/raging chemicals/hormones etc and the fact that the front cortal something or other in the brain which controls the ability to make judgments doesn’t fully develop until late 20s. Combine that with mental health in general still being quite taboo and it all ends up too much for some people.

I think the situation for young people can be quite grim, few decent jobs, expensive to get into education, thousands are NEETs.

Some people have fairly grims lives as well….fancy working 50 hours per week in a chicken processing factory for min wage?? I’m suprised more people don’t top themselves.

There will be people reading this thread hesitating to post due to embarrassment(?) or even worry that they’ll be seen as attention-whores (by some). If there is anyone reading this thread and needs to talk. Please do, to me or anyone above. I’m still repairing myself two years on from when my Dad suddenly passed away. Not the standard love-Dad stuff. The awful side of humans. Talk. I or anyone else may not have the answers but getting it out/off your chest may help. markhoracekuk at yahoo dot com

Good stuff Hora. Fair play to you, same goes for me.

It is a sad fact about women, having equalised their relationship with men, they do expect some of the former attributes men used to possess. They still seek and expect albeit in some cases subliminally, power, strength and physical support, as indeed evolution provided, they of course deny it, but then half the time they really do not know their own minds or what makes themselves tick so are subsequently extremely unreliable in times of stress for the sort of support a guy might find useful if at a terminal edge.

Very profound all that and no answers to be found there as to why it appears a lot more men are cashing in their chips, I guess we all think about it as a way out at times and in truth it can appear to solve a lot of problems like just running away.

Like a lot of folks who chase physical adrenaline filled highs, I guess I also get equal black lows in the same measure, but living the kind of lifestyle I’ve managed to create for myself, I’ve always felt there’s always one more ride to live for, so when some young guy living a similar life still goes and tops himself it is an especial shock.

It happened once before, a young waverider guy called Angus Chater some windsurfers here might remember him, he experienced a three or four wave hold down and drowned. He then experienced the whole light at the end of the tunnel euphoria which comes in death and death recovery situations, as he was brought round after six or seven minutes gone. So the next hurdle life presented him and I believe that was also female created he just simply went back to where he knew everything felt so much better, that could be argued as understandable.

But when someone so young at 20-22 with none of lifes real experiences and everything still to live for gives up and chucks in the towel, that is very difficult to understand and leads to the questions about the pressures, morals, and pastoral care that is or is not available to the young today.

societal pressures are behind a lot of problems, suicide rates drop markedly during war — the figures for Northern Ireland show this very clearly, not saying lets have a war,but communal focus gives folk bearings/status/interdependency–we are social creatures of the extreme–remove some or all the things that we need and it can have devastating consequences for individuals and their kith and kin.

Spoke to him a coupla days before he did it

Colleague took his own life merely an hour after we spoke to him last. Came in to work as normal, seemed just the same as normal, excused himself from the weekly team meeting (claimed he had another meeting to attend), went home, emailed people mostly in other offices but also a few in our team and timed it perfectly that nobody would be in their office to check inbox, nor be able to answer phone. Polizei were there within 1 hour of the emails.

Only when you get directly affected by suicide do you find out and realise how many people you know that have also been directly affected by suicides.

It’s very easy to make a few bad choices that have a massively negative impact on your life. In turn this can affect everything and make it feel like there’s not much worth carrying on for. A massive sense of loneliness, stress from money/relationship issues and just generally a bleak outlook means that you always feel like just giving up on everything.

I’ve had pretty depressing thoughts about it since I was about 18, two failed attempts have left me with certain physical issues that have merely compounded the matter. Of course when you fail you then get the feeling that you can’t even do that right.

When I’ve spoken to people about it (which is rare, I normally keep the thoughts to myself) they’ve always fed me the lines ‘but think what it’ll do to your family and friends’ and ‘it’s the most selfish thing someone can do’. Both of these are about the worst thing you can say to someone contemplating it and also shows a total lack of understanding. You’re at a point where you just don’t care about anything any more, the day to day misery grinding you down bit by bit. Other peoples feelings are the last thing on your mind.

The problem is that once you consider it an option, its always an option. Like I said, I’ve had these feelings and thoughts since my late teens and it always feels like I can do it. There probably isn’t a day that passes when I don’t think about it. I’ve bought all the stuff and it’s ready to go, it’s not even a morbid feeling, just an acceptance of what will inevitably happen.

The one thing that’s stopped me is the thought of just getting on my bike and riding away from it all. In normal circumstances just running away isn’t really an answer, but when it comes down to that, or ‘buying the farm’ then again it’s nice to have that option. Bike is in the garage with the panniers loaded. When it gets that bad again then I’ll start pedalling and if I get to where I’m going and it’s still as bad then at least I’ve tried.

Jesus flange..

Change your life, there are lots of options, **** off overseas, go to Africa/India/Insert other appropriate region where you could help and also make a difference. Take up another activity, buy a kayak, go SUPing, take to the mountains and work as a barman, join the army, become crew on a yacht delivery team, lots of things life could offer a young person.

No money? Rob a bloody bank, ffs even ending up in jail must be better than ending it all.. Isn’t it?

Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick here, life is for living or we wouldn’t be here in the first place..

I work in this field with young people and i would agree that there is an increase in mental health issues.
There is support out there and can be accessed via GP’s or in crisis A & E. GP surgerys also have an out of hours number. There are also a variety of drop in centres that offer support depending on your area.
The service provided is confidential and most importantly, IT’S GOOD TO TALK.

did suicide rates drop during the war, or did more men put themselves in positions where they might be killed instead of having to kill themselves?

as hinted at above, certain demographics will put themselves in dangerous positions on purpose… a war is a good way to do this. i’ve known people eat and smoke on purpose in an effort to kill themselves slowly so people wouldn’t think they committed suicide (shame) in fact a guy less than 20 meters from me upped his cigarettes to over 25grams of tobacco a day in an effort to get lung cancer.

No money? Rob a bloody bank, ffs even ending up in jail must be better than ending it all.. Isn’t it?

Depends on your outlook on life I suppose. I should probably explain that I’m outside the age range mentioned above and the issues I have don’t really stem from money related problems. Whilst I’m sure that this issue does affect young lads in their twenties that fit a certain demographic, it also affects other people that don’t fit in with the statistics above.

I can’t really attribute one defining factor that causes how I feel, just a multitude of things that gradually build up over time. Still, it can’t have got that bad as I’m still here. I just don’t think you can look at something and say ‘x’ is the cause, we need to make sure we provide such and such a service. Everyone does it for a different reason, for some it might be that they don’t conform to a certain stereotype or ‘fit in’, for others it might be relationship related, for another group maybe money/work. And for some its just because..

I think there’s a difference between trends and actual facts. Last time I spoke to someone about it I was the ‘ideal’ age to be having these thoughts. Now it seems like that has shifted to a younger generation.

I’m not sure there really is a solution to ‘lowering the number’ of suicides. I think it’s maybe the one time where you can look at finding a solution rather than fixing a cause. Two GP’s I’ve seen have been less than sympathetic to the point where I’ve walked out the practise feeling worse than when I went it. There seems to be a big push towards filling people with anti-depressants rather than actually trying to help them. But at the end of the day if someone really feels like that then (from my experience) there doesn’t seem to be much you can do.

personally i dont think its possible to accurately reflect the true suicide rates of men, they tend to chose much more violent methods than women and as a result i think its easy to attribute the cause of death to the method (motorbike “accident” for example) as opposed to suicide.

EDIT – i’ve linked to these guys a few times before on this forum, worth doing it again if you’re reading this thread and not feeling particularly great at the moment

About CALM

On our wednesday night ride 2 weeks ago, I spotted a guy in a tree in the bush. Only been there a couple of hours. 1 guy with us is a cop & phoned it in, so the ambo wasn’t far away.

As well as young men, there has been a massive rise in suicides of males in the 45-59 age group. The reason for this seems to be that if they lose their jobs, then they are potentially looking at never working again. On the scrap heap at 50.

Having experienced the resulting depression that goes with unemployment myself, not long back, I can absolutely empathise with a general sense of hopelessness that could all-too-easily lead to suicide

But why is it more hopeless now than it was say in the sixties, seventies and eighties?

What about the depression of the late twenties and early thirties, anyone know what the suicide rate was then?

But why is it more hopeless now than it was say in the sixties, seventies and eighties?

Because these two clowns are the ones who are charged with the task of making it better

Feeling confident? Seeing that light at the end of that tunnel yet? Think they even care? Triple dip anyone?