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Subsidence?

23 posts & 8 voices | Started 9 months ago by Onzadog | Latest reply from Onzadog

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Onzadog - Member

Bought a house about 5 years ago. It was built in the 1980s. When it was surveyed, we asked the surveyor about some slight cracks in the porch. He told us it was nothing to worry about, he'd spoken to the neighbours and they're all like it.

Fast forward to now and we are struggling to lock/unlock the front door. The cracks are perhaps up to 10mm in places.

speaking to the neighbours, it seems that a number most of he houses around of the same age have solid enough foundations for the house but nothing for the porch.

So my question is, what's the difference between subsidence and bad workmanship?

It is time to claim on the household insurance and I'm I right in thinking that in real terms, I've no comeback on the surveyor?

Any advice would be much appreciated. Cheers.

Posted 9 months ago #
kevj - Member

So my question is, what's the difference between subsidence and bad workmanship? It is time to claim on the household insurance and I'm I right in thinking that in real terms, I've no comeback on the surveyor?

It could be other factors tbh. If other properties nearby have similar problems then it may be an inadequate foundation local to the porch. If this was isolated, then I would look initially into the ground conditions but as you suggest it is common, it maybe a poor foundation design or the contractor skimping on materials, ie concrete and or rebar.

Check with your solicitor who you bought the house through to see if it was covered by nhbc.

You probably face a fight either way and. I would advise you employ a structural engineer to make an assessment which would add significant weight to your case.

Posted 9 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

I've no comeback on the surveyor?

Why have you no comeback on the surveyor ? Just because he's spoken to the neighbours and they're all like it doesn't mean it's not subsidence. It might just mean that your neighbours houses are also suffering subsidence. And I have to say that 'speaking to the neighbours' to see what they have to say sounds a tad unprofessional to me.

Posted 9 months ago #
tony24 - Member

Is the front door pvc?

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

The front door is upvc. How would that affect things? I wasn't overly impressed with the surveyor to be honest. Told us about all the stuff he couldn't check. Sort of left me wondering what he had checked. Best bit was telling us we needed a fire door between the kitchen and garage. What? Like this door that says fire door down the side of it?

I'd assumed no nhbc as it was twenty years old when we bought it.

Posted 9 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

10mm cracks/gaps can only be movement. Assuming that the house hasn't been hit by anything or there hasn't been an explosion nearby, that can only leave subsidence/settlement. You say it's the porch but it's affected your front door - is your front door not fixed to an external wall ?

Posted 9 months ago #
kevj - Member

Where are the cracks and what part of the front door is catching?

Are the neighbors cracks similar?

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

No, the front door hinges on the porch and latches against the house. The cracks are worse towards the front of the porch and there's a nice gap under the rsj over the door.

I guess it is subsistence as it is movement. Just wondering if the insurance company would try to get out of it. Also, does it then get recorded anywhere and impact on resale value? Couple of the neighbours have had then rebuilt. Not a great design. There's a utility cupboard one side and a front door on the other. The porch doesn't really have any sides! Not structurally anyway.

Posted 9 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

No, the front door hinges on the porch and latches against the house.

I can't entirely visualise that, unless you mean one side of the frame is fixed to the porch whilst the other to the external wall, which seems rather strange. But you say the porch has no sides, which presumably means there's nothing to fix the frame to ! Still never mind, if only the porch is affected and the external wall of the house is sound then it shouldn't be a horrendous problem to sort out I would have thought.

Posted 9 months ago #
wallop - Member

Check with your solicitor who you bought the house through to see if it was covered by nhbc.

Doesn't NHBC only cover 12 years?

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

Well, there's not nothing on the sides but not much. The door frame links the porch and external wall one side with the cupboards doing the same on the other side. Rest of the house seems fine. I don't know if it's repairable or needs replacing though. Not my field of expertise. Feel like I'm going to hear lots of air sucked through teeth very soon.

Posted 9 months ago #
wallop - Member

Can you post some photos?

Posted 9 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

I don't know if it's repairable or needs replacing though

Well unpinning a porch doesn't seem worthwhile imo, and underpinning only stops the problem getting worse, it won't jack it back up. Demolish the porch and start again I reckon. The main thing is the "rest of the house seems fine". And I would seek legal advise concerning the surveyor, seems to me that he should have picked it up as there were clear signs. I'm not a surveyor/engineer btw, my comments are purely based on my trade experience working in construction, so take them with that it mind.

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

Just worried about making things official as I understand that once a property has suffered subsistence, its difficult to insure, therefore mortgage, therefore sell.

Posted 9 months ago #
tony24 - Member

Reason i ask is if a upvc door is not " racked " properly over the years it can drop causing the locks to stop working a make it rub/ hit on the bottom of the frame. If it was correctly racked the amount of movement you are talking about should not of really affected your door.

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

The brick work over the door on the hinge side has some big gaps so I'm not surprised the lock side on the external wall doesn't fit like it used to.

Posted 9 months ago #
kevj - Member

Doesn't NHBC only cover 12 years?

Generally, yes, but if someone else has made a claim within the 12 year period and has proved negligence, there is a possibility the op could too. It gets complicated and is probably not too much for just a porch.

Onzadog, I think you may have answered your own question. Get a quote from a decent builder to demolish and rebuild the porch. Consider this cost against what you think the house may loose in value.

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

Had a closer look today and took some pics. There's no unevenness or cracking in the pavement around the house. No lumps or bumps on the driveway.

have a look at the pics. I'd like to know what people think, particularly if you have experience in this field. Is it subsidence, or just poorly constructed?

That's the hinge side of the door with an obvious crack above the corner of the door.

And that's the same spot from the inside.

And that's the opposite side where the meter cupboard is.

And this is where the porch butts up against the house (I can't really say where it joins the house).

But no cracks or holes near the front of the porch

Or near the door.

Oddly enough, the rendering on the front that's been cracked for years doesn't seem to be getting any worse.

So, your thoughts please.

Or a guestimate as to what it will cost to have it rebuilt!

Cheers.

Posted 9 months ago #
summittoppler - Member

From the photos I'd say the foundation at the front of the porch has failed. Saying that the sides are probably shot as well. The reason for saying the foundation has gone is that the porch is 'leaving' the house at the top. The would mean the front of the proch is dropping. You'll probably notice the brickwork getting lower to the tarmac outside over time aswell.
Obviuosly it needs to be sorted but legally I've got no idea personally.

However, to rebuild, it shouldn't break the bank. One thing though with the porch droppiing, I'd get the services looked at. On the 2nd & 3rd pic from the end it shows a drain pipe and what looks like a gas pipe? May be wrong on the gas pipe but with any movement more damage will occur.
Again just my opinion......................

Posted 9 months ago #
neallyman - Member

You've got a bit of subsidence under the front foundation, probably near the corner of the porch/foundation. Could be a few causes but probably some form of soil shrinkage (possible inadequate depth of foundation). When I first started reading the thread I thought it was differential settlement but that would be shown by a crack at the junction of the porch and the house - this is subsidence.

Internet diagnosis always a tricky one but I wouldn't worry too much, it's not a huge deal, and certainly doesn't need to be rebuilt. I'd be pretty sure it can be sorted by underpinning the foundation - basically shoring up the ground below the foundation with concrete to stop that section from 'sinking' any further. Once that's sorted you can sort the cosmetic issues (cracking) by repointing externally and filling them over internally etc etc.

Contact a structural engineer, don't even bother with a surveyor. You want a local firm of engineers to come and inspect (via a trial pit where they will dig down adjacent to the area and inspect the foundation, depth, ground conditions etc) then draw up a plan of attack for the required works to be carried out.

Posted 9 months ago #
swamp_boy - Member

+1 for going to a structural engineer not a surveyor.

Good test for clay shrinkage is that the cracks will narrow or even close completely through the winter and reopen next summer.

Any trees or big shrubs in the vicinity? They can cause that sort of cracking if the roots get under the foundations and dry the soil too much. Sometimes you can avoid foundation work by removing the offending vegetation and repairing the cracks once everything stabilises.

Posted 9 months ago #
Onzadog - Member

Cheers guys. There is a tree near by but it's not massive and there's no crack or lumps in the drive between the tree and the porch. Any ideas what needs doing with the door that doesn't lock? Can anyone recommend any engineers near nottingham?

Posted 9 months ago #