so , cameron is sorry that the state was heavily involved with targeting and ensuring assassination of those it considered problematic.
Public enquiry denied, don’t want the real state methods exposed for all to see……

This is why we do not live in a so called democracy, who are the terrorists ??

Five minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn’t be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).

ahhh more “I can’t believe it’s not terrorism”. Only commie’s, Muslims and Irish catholics are terrorists.

See my rant on the London Blitz thread.

davidjones15 – Member

Five minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn’t be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).

Words are cheap.

The failure to hold a proper enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane is a disgrace.

This is Britain, for God’s sake, not Chile under Pinochet.

Five minutes before this statement he was saying how the loyalist trouble makers of last week were no way loyal nor representative of what they claim to be loyal to and that any violence shouldn’t be tolerated. (Or words to that effect).

I thought we were supposed to have moved on from all the sectarian violence. Princess Tony had a hand in it, so it must be so.

This is Britain, for God’s sake, not Chile under Pinochet.

Our politicians can wish can’t they?

“I once called her up to tell her that I’d had 200 trade unionists shot dead and thrown into the sea. “Gusty, dear,” she replied, “Give me the resources you have and I’d create a new island of dead leftists in the South Pacific by lunchtime tomorrow.” Damn, she’s cold!” ~ Augusto Pinochet on Margaret Thatcher 😛

The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?

Yes, if the state actively helped to murder someone I would hope an inquiry was bloody well made.

Failing to undertake an inquiry will only lead to more songs with the words “**** tha British Army” being played in Irish pubs and the resultant explodey things that go with that public sentiment.

The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million

hopefully not the jimmy one.

Then there was the stalker inquiry, and strangely as deputy chief constable, he ended up selling double glazing, after alledged links where made between him and alledged criminals.

mefty – Member

The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?

If you’d like to have the slightest bit of confidence in our country as a reasonable, honest and democratic state, accountable to it’s people, yes.

If you’re happy to see death squads operating with impunity, organising the murder of law abiding citizens that they simply disagree with, then I guess not.

how mealy mouthed is hiding behind ‘cost’ as a reason for not holding a public enquiry– they are murderers, they did so at the behest of state organisations , in chile it was called the ‘dirty war’ against trade unionists and the elected govt, do not forget how pally pinochet and thatcher were !

Given that most of the loyalist and nationalist terrorists from back then were released on license as part of the end to violence, I can’t see what can be achieved by constantly dragging over old news.

It’s clear that certain acts were either supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned to back then. Maybe the only way to fight an opponent waging a guerilla war is to adopt the same approach. It doesn’t make it right but it happened. Time to move on.

he failure to hold a proper enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane is a disgrace.

this but with some swearing added before disgrace

We – the state- colluded with terrorists to allow them to murder him.

Finucane was shot dead at his home in Fortwilliam Drive, north Belfast, by Ken Barrett and another masked man using a Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol and a .38 revolver respectively. He was hit 14 times.[11] The two gunmen knocked down the front door with a sledgehammer and entered the kitchen where Finucane had been having a Sunday meal with his family; they immediately opened fire and shot him twice, knocking him to the floor. Then while standing over him, the leading gunman fired 12 bullets into his face at close range.[12] His wife Geraldine was slightly wounded in the shooting attack which their three children witnessed as they hid underneath the table.

Shocking

I can’t see what can be achieved by constantly dragging over old news.

I think its justice.

It’s clear that certain acts were either supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned to back then.

Indeed it is and we need to account for our behaviour as some it was poor , some of it bad and some it outright illegal and resulted in murders.

We cannot as a nation just shrug and go shit happens live with it.

Maybe the only way to fight an opponent waging a guerilla war is to adopt the same approach.

I doubt it is the only way as this did not lead to peace but talking did and that would have been illegal and the govt went to great pains to state they were not doing this.

It doesn’t make it right but it happened. Time to move on

Think some folk still need justce to get closure or at least an apology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20245311

Read the footnote
(The IRA also targeted the village of Tullyhommon, 20 miles from Enniskillen, where members of the Boys’ and Girls’ Brigades were holding a Remembrance Day parade. The bomb was four times the size of the Enniskillen device but it failed to detonate.)

The bomb in Enniskillen was a smaller bomb. If the bomb had gone off in Tullyhommon we’d have had the mass slaughter of children.

It seems the South Africans have a better formula.

That said I honestly thought there would never be peace in NI in my lifetime and there are children who have grown up and known nothing other than peace.

Rudeboy – having grown up in NI through the troubles and lost friends without there being a conviction or public enquiry I’d like to see all sides of the conflict held to the same degree of scrutiny.

But, the world has moved on. Suspected former terrorists on both sides holding political office trying to make the place work.

Unless an enquiry has a prospect of bringing criminal charges then I can’t see what it solves. A public enquiry will not do that.

When Gerry and Martin and their chums agree to come clean about their involvement in the death of Jean McConville and the rest of the disappeared, then I’ll think its fair that we hold a public enquiry into the death of Pat Finucane.

Personally, I think that a proper truth and reconciliation commission should have been constituted several years ago, with powers to ensure proper compliance!

And as for Finucane – If you sup with the devil, be sure to use a long spoon!

mefty – Member
The Saville inquiry cost over £200 million, the Billy Wright one cost over £30 million, whilst clearly wrong was done and has been admitted, does it really make sense to set up yet another costly exercise?

that depends entirely what perspective you are looking at it from, there are a number of angles.

He wasn’t a terrorist.
Or fighting a guerilla war.
He was a lawyer, An officer of the court.

And it wasn’t

supported, sanctioned or a blind eye turned

, it was a murder organised by our police and armed forces.

It doesn’t make it right but it happened. Time to move on.

Would you say that about the murderers who organised the Omagh bombing?

So Z11 you think we should allow trials to go ahead with no defence lawyer?

I think he thinks that if the state colludes to have them murdered then its ok as they sup with the devil 😕

I do agree that truth and reconciliation is the way and there are tragedies and misdeeds on all sides done by all involved including our govt.

Druidh

I said a long spoon

Solicitors are supposed to be honest brokers and officers of the court, they hold a duty is to the court, but when they are working in collusion with their accused client to fabricate alibis, intimidate witnesses, make false statements etc then the solicitor is is no longer supping with that long spoon, they have become conspirators in murder in just the same way as RUC and FRU officers are being accused of today.

And before you say there is no proof of that, I’ll point you towards the precise words in todays accusation of state collusion – I believe, on the balance of probabilities… In the absence of any video or audio recording, or direct admissions from those involved

Still doesn’t make murdering a solicitor right, where’s the proof he was colluding? That’s for courts to decide not guns. If we want to hold ourselves in higher esteem than the IRA then only proper IRA gunmen were legitimate targets.

Rusty

The IRA considered themselves a legitimate armed force. They targeted civilians. That’s fact.

However I’m not justifying a murder but there are a few players who should be grateful that HMG didn’t take a leaf from the Israeli response. That was to actively target and kill senior members of designated terrorist groups. Is that wrong? Absolutely.

The week after the Brighton bomb the Sunday Express ran an anti IRA editorial. Just below the editorial they used to print a quote of the day. On this occasion it was a quote from a famous Irish Republican called Michael Collins along the lines of “you can’t put an idea against the wall and shoot it to death”. Reconciliation has to crystallise at some point. That’s why we should have assembled a truth and reconciliation commission long ago as these events from both sides will drag the peace process back.

Natural justice means people need to understand who, why, what and when from ALL sides. A public enquiry into this one act does not bring justice to the countless others on both sides who have lost loved ones.

However I’m not justifying a murder but there are a few players who should be grateful that HMG didn’t take a leaf from the Israeli response. That was to actively target and kill senior members of designated terrorist groups. Is that wrong? Absolutely.

Except he wasn’t really a senior member was he, he was associated with them but not a fully fledged member carrying out or planning ops. There would be a lot of dead lawyers if we all decided to murder them when they helped to tell porkies.

Bwaarp

It is wrong that agents of the state were involved in criminal activity, murder, It makes them criminals.

It is also wrong that by supporting the IRA and colluding to falsify evidence and alibi’s to see guilty people evade justice, Finucane also facilitated the murders of countless numbers of other people

Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won’t be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it’s done.

Still doesn’t justify state sponsored murder because he was a bad man, he was indirectly involved….he didn’t have direct access to guns or bombs and was therefore not an immediate threat who could be dealt with by force.

Remind me again, when was the death penalty abolished. I believe it was in the 50’s not 1989.

Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won’t be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it’s done.

All the more reason not to get involved and let the paddies kill each other.

Still doesn’t justify state sponsored murder

When did anyone justify it?

All the more reason not to get involved and let the paddies kill each other.

If they had just kept to killing each other in shit-on-shit crimes rather than innocent bystanders and mothers of ten who they accused of touting, then I don’t think we ever would have!

If they had just kept to killing each other in shit-on-shit crimes rather than innocent bystanders and mothers of ten who they accused of touting, then I don’t think we ever would have!

We’d been involved since Cromwell…..if they’d kept it to military targets we still would have been. Misguided loyalty to the protestant population etc, should have done one and buried our heads in the sand and pretended to be innocent.

In the end if it had just been Ireland’s problem to sort out there would have never been some genocide of protestants, they’d have just had to have got used to living in a Catholic country. The pikies weren’t worth the troubles.

yossarian – Member
Dirty wars have dirty tactics. The reason this won’t be properly investigated is because its not an isolated incident. This is how it’s done.

Yip it all leads down a murcky road that they don’t want to go down.

don’t want the real state methods exposed for all to see……

This is why we do not live in a so called democracy

Hah.. I love it when people assume a democratic system is the same thing as fair, honest and morally upgright government. People use the word ‘democracy’ as a catch-all phrase for perfect government. Lolz.

People use the word ‘democracy’ as a catch-all phrase for perfect government. Lolz.

true, I always remind them that hitler gained his power through democracy.

We cannot as a nation just shrug and go shit happens live with it.

No, but we can say “we all know shit happened, we all know that both ‘sides’ were involved in appalling acts, now let’s move on”

As has been said, the SA Truth and Reconcilation model was probably the one that should have been followed, but it’s too late for that now.

Northern Ireland (and, indeed, Eire) is, for the first time in at least three generations, relatively peaceful. That has come about because parties on all sides have come out of entrenched positions. This is the only way forward, not a constant digging over of the past.

so accountability is not important anymore, govt and their agents do as they please, give it time and then declare it old hat not worth bothering with !!

find the flippant attitudes to state terrorism fairly abhorrent,but then again its to be expected from some quarters…

Its the Hypocritical bull that we are all supposed to accept as valid reasons for it that is worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20715507

Apparently, MI6 was instrumental in kidnap too.

Apparently, MI6 was instrumental in kidnap too.

look the bottom line is that when states stick their cocks into other states all kinds of nasty stuff happens. collusion, rendition, kidnap, extortion, assassination and cospiracy are the norm, not the exception.

Really dont have a problem with this, i like it that the government comes over all ‘black ops’ when it wants to….the Oirish shouldnt have got all uppity in the first place.
I love reading about the cloak and dagger stuff, damn near gives me wood and reminds me what a magnificent country this still is at times.

Oh and when callmedave appears on the box roundly condemning things he is guilty of the worst kind of cynicism. What he means is we are sorry it’s been made public.

Perhaps we could get them to kidnap and render you – imagine how proud you would be, the excitement it would cause in your pants and perhaps the services could finish you off to round off the treat?

Why bite junkyard?