Most of the problems seem to stem from utter ignorance, not aggression
indeed, agreed to 100%. Most drivers don't actually want to knock you off or cut you up. Most of the problems from cyclists, meanwhile, are as a result of a decision they make. Not good.

Drivers may not want to knock people off or cut them up, but many don't give any thought at all to the facts that waiting a few seconds before passing or giving some space rather than just forcing past might be a good idea.

That is the problem. Lack of thought and consideration for others whilst cocooned inside (often) a small car or white van.

Some tosspot in a lorryyyyyyyypuled out on me this morning luckily I could just swerve around the back of him (it was that close I was doing 20odd mph) It's not like it was gloriously sunny or anything. People do not pay attention.

"you have to think. Oh look, car overtaking me on blind corner. Perhaps they'll pull in inches from my front wheel. I'll scrub some speed and get ready to take evasive action. "

what evasive action would that be, ejector seat? If a car comes round the corner and a head-on collision happens you are going to die…end of.

Assertive riding, owning your space etc. is all well and good on urban roads, on country lanes how are you going to stop someone using the oncoming lane to overtake you on a blind corner and the then pulling in inches from your front wheel? If another car comes round the car you are all going to die.

I have a corner like this on my commute. I've found if I ride at the side of the road (about 1m off the kerb), everyone and their dog will overtake me, with inches to spare if need be, meaning they are endangering both anyone coming round the corner, and me as well. If I sit far out almost in the middle of the road, but not so far out that I'd get hit by oncoming traffic, then anyone who is stupid enough to overtake and pull in suddenly doesn't matter because they I have loads of room to veer left in. It also makes it much less likely that they'll overtake in the first place, because they think of it as doing an illegal overtaking manouvre, whereas if you're in the normal place, they think of it as passing a bike, which doesn't seem to count for most drivers.

Joe

I agree that most of the problem driving I see is down to ignorance, lack of observation and stupidity, on behalf of drivers (probably myself included at times, we all make mistakes at some point). On behalf of bikers it's generally though consciously chosen stupidity – RLJing, popping on and off the pavement, squeezing up gaps when the traffic is about to kick off again. Cyclists seem to be so much more aware of the road rules, but then so much more willing to consciously flout them if it suits them (and then try to claim they're somehow safer or it improves their safety if they do this). As said earlier, get into a verbal altercation with a driver and the first thing they spout is red light jumping, the second thing is usually the usual tax nonesense (as if you couldnt possibly own a car).

I do the same, I sit in the middle of the lane, years ago that would have stopped people overtaking, now some people are prepared to use the oncoming lane. If they do and have a head on collision with another car you are likely to be hit by flying debris, bodies, the oncoming car, a car behind you etc and be very lucky to survive.

I agree about giving yourself room to to veer into if they pull in suddenly, however what I am talking about is if they actually hit another car head-on (a more regular occurance than you would imagine) if their reactions are not quick enough to veer out of the way. In this situation NO road-craft can help you, you are a sitting duck

Pjay, take a wee break from commuting on the road. I do feel your mindset can be potrayed into physical/positioning etc. If someone rides too close to the gutter or hesitates in getting into their lane etc.

Ive ridden on the road for the first time in a couple of weeks this morning. Early on in the day a lad was run over and crushed by a truck turning left at some lights. I saw his bike and remains of his helmet along with a large pool of bloody (covered in fine lime?/chalk). It didnt effect me but I had a couple of near misses around that junction previously- obviously it did though and I decided to knock riding in for a couple of weeks as I 'jumped' everytime a car passed me (a sort of nervousness).

Must admit almost got wiped out 2 days ago by a woman who just didn't see/wasn't looking for a cyclist on the roundabout. Only my sprint saved me… she was shocked though when she realised it though.

I think my defensive riding has improved whilst the car drivers have remained about the same – so it feels better for me on the roads.
I'm riding about 70% country B-Roads in Sussex so quite busy B-roads especially as there's a couple of primary schools.

The main troubles come at the changes of seasons; the first week after the summer hols when the roads get busy again and people are stressing about return to work / little johnnies 1st day at school etc…. Then the first couple of weeks after the clocks change in Oct with driving in the dark and then excitement of driving fast when the clocks change back to BST.

Interesting debate, I've felt the same myself in recent years – a sad indictment of where this sh!thole of a country is heading, funny how getting behind the wheel brings out the worst in so many people and reflects society in general.

I agree that it's got progressively worse in recent years, careful considerate drivers are in the minority (>10%?), the majority drive badly 'without due care' (70%?) and as already said an increasing number drive to deliberately endanger us (20%?).

All hope is not lost though, although the 70% are easier to deal with than the 20%.

It sounds as though you are thinking about doing the right things there's always something you can learn from John Franklins 'Cyclecraft' and strange as it may seem the Police Driving Manual 'Roadcraft' or even Stephen Hayley's excellent 'Mind Driving'. Make yourself and your intentions clear and seen, through positioning, arm signals, eye contact and clothing, lights. [Regrettably I've taken to wearing a white lid and hi-viz on the commute – it should be the drivers responsibility to "look" not our responsibility to "make ourselves seen" but again, the reality is we need to do what we can to help ensure our own safety].

Look again at your observation skills – could anything have given you an indication something was going to happen before it did and given you time to react, got you see them or there mirrors, eye contact again?

Be assertive and defensive if that makes sense. As it sounds you have been, take space / create space to move into, don't go for non-existent or closing gaps, cover the brakes, don't become the 'jam in the sandwich'.

I know it's hard not to do a "Ton" but resist rising to challenges, try to create as many "pro-social" situations as you can.

What I mean by "pro-social" is let others past where its safe, give everyone a friendly "thank-you", acknowledgement waves, get eye contact and smile. Stop to let people cross the road, keep side junctions clear, think twice before heading to the front of the queue if it's not going to get you any further etc.

Good luck, stick with and remember…

Let's be careful out there!

AnalogueAndy "pro-social" spot on!

If we all do that tomorrow, the drivers won't know what's hit them 🙂
Give a thumbs up to a car driver as they give you enough room when they pass, wave a bus driver through a junction ahead of you, smile at the good drivers, let an HGV driver past you. It really does improve the ride.

"pro-social"? I call my commute route the 'wavy-hand route'. i.e. I wave thanks where ever I can and set off at the sametime whenever I can so hopefully roughly the same commuters may see me and think 'thats possibly that polite cyclist again' as they pass me.

Fanciful thinking but thanks goes along way.

What happens is that brits who live in cities/suburbia go on holiday to France and pootle around backroads in the middle of nowhere at off peak times and say 'oh isn't France great for cycling'.

Not at all. I live out in the country and get to ride mostly on backroads here – we've cycled in France into towns and cities bigger than anything I normally ride through here at peak holiday times. The attitude of drivers towards cyclists outside silly places like Cannes is just so much better over there than it is here. I've mentioned recently how the only car that's ever cut us up in France was British. It really is much better.

I am convinced the " pro social" as you call it works. Assertive defensive riding and being polite to other road users. I try to do it. sometimes however I just click into brain out commuter / courier mode, overtaking caars all teh way down the hill home. I really must take a vid of a rush hour trip thru edinbugh in that mode. Not jumping lights or going on pavements however

I try to be polite and considerate when riding and to be fair, so do many drivers, I think that that's the way to go whatever mode of transport you're using. There are a couple of cycleways where I ride that cross busy roads and quite often car will stop to let me across; raising a hand and smiling is the right thing to do and it is amazing how much nicer it makes a ride. I'm certainly not out to label all car drivers as idiots, but there are some (and some idiot cyclists too) and they can make things scary (quite possibly for other car users too).

There does seem to be something about cyclists though that single them out, I live in the country and people don't seem to get irrate about a herd of cows in the road and I don't recall ever seeing a car driver act like an idiot when passing a horse and rider (they all seem to crawl pass giving as big a gap as possible) – but not for cyclists.

Quite a lot of people believe that cyclists are those who can't afford cars and are so unworthy of notice. I've been told many times that it's a shame that I can't afford a car I just smile and shrug, let them get on with it they'll never believe otherwise.

There does seem to be something about cyclists though that single them out, I live in the country and people don't seem to get irrate about a herd of cows in the road and I don't recall ever seeing a car driver act like an idiot when passing a horse and rider (they all seem to crawl pass giving as big a gap as possible) – but not for cyclists.

I was going to write something similar on the Times Online article that was linked to yesterday about drivers overtaking too close/cycle lanes not being well designed but couldn't log-in. Oh well. You're right though.

Agree about the "pro-social" thing as well. It's one reason why it's seldom worth getting into an altercation on a commute cos you see the same people at the same times every day and, if you've caused damage to a car, it's not going to be difficult to track you down.
On the other hand most situations can be diffused by a wave of thanks or an acknowledgment of being in the wrong.

Aracer out of interest where have you been cycling in France?

One thing that most on here can do is to overtake cyclists properly when driving. I'll make a point of slowing down, moving right over to the other side of the road, indicating etc. If you check your mirrors afterwards, you will often see people copying you. Through this method hopefully people might learn something.

For the guy who thinks 20% of drivers are out to kill him…. Either you're very wrong, or we all need to know where you live! Fact is, you simply don't remember the massive majority of drivers who are considerate. I can clearly remember the 5 close calls I've had, and I'd say all were caused by poor driving rather than a desire to hurt me on purpose. I don't remember the many thousands of cars who have passed me safely.

I agree with the person who said that more attention needs to be paid to cyclists in the driving test. I think people are simply not aware of how a bike moves on the road, speeds and positioning etc. Therefore they'll find it acceptable to overtake approaching junctions and traffic lights or cut close simply because they are ignorant. The biggest problem is that cyclists are almost always seen as an obstacle. Sometimes I find myself in this mode, and need to snap myself out of it.

There was an item on bbc breakfast news today – making Bristol the country's first official 'cycling city' – one interesting point (IIRC) was that 20-odd (?) years ago the level of cycling in Copenhagen was about the level it is/has been is Cardiff, at about 2%, now it's something like 50% – tho' having been there, it does seem like there's more room for cycle lanes.

I've just come back from hols in the Black Forest – Tubingen and Freiburg. Admittedly they're both university towns with the advantage of more space for cycle paths, but there were loads of bikes, and across the age spectrum – quite a few in the 50s or more were touring, too. I barely saw anyone wearing a helmet, apart from the occasional roadie or mtber.

P'raps I'm lucky where I live – nw surrey/SW London – you get the occasional twunt, and in a week of commuting mebbe receiving some abuse or being shouted at a couple of times, mostly it's dimwits that think you're going slowly 'cos you're on a bike pull a last moment maneuver.

For the guy who thinks 20% of drivers are out to kill him…. Either you're very wrong, or we all need to know where you live!

Strangely enough, my commute takes me from Bath to…. Bristol.

You're right, although it some times seems that way it's nowhere near as bad as "20%" – just some days I seem to meet all of them!

I call my commute route the 'wavy-hand route'. i.e. I wave thanks where ever I can

Cycling home the other night down a narrowish street lined with cars on either side and room for only one car to pass down the road. I'm following a car down when it comes to a halt. Up ahead a van is approaching but it pulls into a gap and flashes to the car that it can proceed. The car pulls off and I follow leaving a car and a half length gap between me and the car in front.

As we approach the van the driver of the car gives him a wave and the van driver waves back.

As I approach the van, seconds behind the car, I also give the van driver a wave.

He shakes his head at me with a look of rage on his face.

been told many times that it's a shame that I can't afford a car I just smile and shrug

If only the majority of car drivers knew how much we spent on our rides…mind you if they did they would feel a bit inferior in their cheap little rot boxes which would bring its own problems

I think the problem with a lot of motorists is just pure ignorance. Once you've accepted that a lot of people probably aren't as skilled behind the wheel of the car as they should be its generally easier to get into the right mindset for taking appropriate avoiding action.

Some silly woman overtook me as I was overtaking a line of parked cars on a downhill bend yesterday. I think she got a bit of a shock as a fat bloke on a single speed 29er can travel really quite quickly downhill and the blind corner she was approaching on the wrong side of the road came up rather faster than she would have liked. I had to feather my brakes to let her get back on the right side of the road. Made me chuckle.

After reading this post when new and then going on a road ride I found that sure I was cut up and vans gave me zero space when overtaking etc.

Normally I wouldn't think a hoot and moaned to a pal etc

Thank god the pal I rode with was positive cyclist and made me forget (shut up and stop moaning zaskar and enjoy the ride stw is fll of nutters…).

Become one with the bike and have life insurance, enjoy ride- sorted.

Ommmmm Ommmm Ommmm 😈