Things I can think of that have riled me:

Moved from RPI to CPI to measure inflation, eliminating the cost of housing from inflation figures. Supposed to be a move to put us more in line with Europe, but a lot of European countries have a property market focussed on rentals, and a few have government set rent limits (Holland, for one).
End result was that we had a big house price bubble, wages increased more slowly than living costs, and an artificially low inflation rate. Ultimately seems like a roundabout way of providing a handout to business to me.

Tax credits instead of simply cutting tax for low earners. Good motives, wrong method in my book. Caused a hell of a lot of heartache and stress for a lot of people.

Terrorism legislation. The lot of it. Horrible, intrusive, and misused constantly.

Banned fox hunting. Never done it, probably never will, but it's just old fashioned class warfare, and has no place in modern politics.

The Iraq war. A complete pack of lies from a bloke who's suddenly become rather rich since quitting as PM.

The Afghan war. Did anyone seriously believe we were going to find Osama waiting in cave for the US Marines to slot him?

David Kelly. Almost certainly topped by someone's intelligence agency, and we don't seem to be that bothered by it.

Litvinenko. See above.

The EDL and BNP. I really believe they wouldn't be where they are today if Labour hadn't told us all that the Muslims are out to do us in.

Never brave enough when they had a huge majority
Too consumer group focused – wanted to know what peole thought of things rather than have prionciples – think politics has changed for ever due to this
Only moral strance Blair ever took where he led the country [did something unpopular becaus ehe thought he knew best] was Iraq and what bad judgement he displayed there
PFI

Fox Hunting was a good one I thinlk the majority of the popoulation believe it has no place in society for this. Not class remember they said hunts were a cross section of society – classless and free for all-when they were defending them. Barbaric

Tron – how about giving it a rest – that is like the rest of your stuff a load of bollox.

tax credits – tax cuts would not have the same effect as often people end up with a greater tax credit than the tax they paid.

Fox hunting – its a deliberator cruel process with no utility. Its barbaric.

Load of half truths about rpi and cpi.

We know you are right wing idealogue who has swallowed the neocon propaganda and lies wholesale.

>We know you are right wing idealogue who has swallowed the neocon propaganda and lies wholesal

s/right/left
s/neocon/mandleson
s/tron/TJ

a few have government set rent limits (Holland, for one).

I forget my exact contract/details, but on each annual renewal the new rental cost is old rental cost multiplied by the government declared effective inflation rate (iirc). My German one was fixed rate for some years (then I bought).

OK can get back on topic now..

Oh no – I don't believe all the NewLabour bollox by any means – and have made it a basic tenent to disbelieve everything Mandelson says 🙂

No truck with the Iraq and Afghan wars at all from me. No truck with he surveillance state ( driven by the right wing press and their created moral panic about crime based on lies)

We know you are right wing idealogue who has swallowed the neocon propaganda and lies wholesale.

I was always under the impression that Neocons were generally in favour of starting wars, restricting civil liberties and keeping people in their place.

Not stuff that I'm generally into I'm afraid. Has it occured to you that I have a few thoughts of my own rather than buying into other people's narratives?

on economics and social policy you have clearly bought it Tron.

Your stating that the IDS stuff is good research wwhen its actually badly written conclusions without evidence and your continual stating that the UK deficit is highest in Europe when it is clearly not – nor is it unsustainably high. Japans is 3 times as much as a % of gdp and the USA is higher as a % of gdp – as is Greece and Italy.

You keep spouting this propaganda on social and economic issues as fact when it is demonstrably wrong. When pushed you have no evidence to back up your assertions.

I don't go around repeatedly stating that we have the highest deficit in Europe. I said we're up there, and that it depends on how you measure it (Debt as a % of GDP, Deficit as a % of GDP, simple total value of Deficit or Debt). The Guardian reckons we'll have a deficit worth 12% of GDP, the worst in the EU this year.

Japan's economy is in a horrific state, and has been for 10 years. Has that passed you by?

As for the CSJ stuff, I'm not going to go throught it and do a critical analysis. It's clearly not an academic article with research methods etc. but I don't believe it is disingenuous, as you do.

Banned fox hunting. Never done it, probably never will, but it's just old fashioned class warfare

Is it f*ck.

Blood sports have no place in modern society. End of.

Have a read of Junkyards rebuttal of your ideas on tax on the other thread – sorry – you simply have swallowed a load of right wing propaganda. Like the CSJ stuff – I have seen some drivel masquerading as research in my time but that is just awful. if yo uncritically accept that as proof then really you need to sharpen your critical facilities. Like what you said on tax credits – how can tax cuts have the same effect when people get a greater credit than the tax they pay?

Iraq, anti-terror legislation and scrapping the 10p tax band spring to mind.

edit: and wot Junkyard sed

So what did the Romans (Labour) do TO us

Nothing compared to the shafting we're going to get.

I'm sorry TJ, but this is ridiculous. I post something and you scream for proof. Yourself or someone agreeing with you posts a load of stuff that isn't even logical and that's fine.

As for the CSJ, as far as I'm aware that's the research the Tory policies are based on (which is what you asked).

Blood sports have no place in modern society. End of.

Yeah get rid of those bastid anglers.

its ok to eat fish as they dont have any feelings

a great man once said

in other news the labour leadership contest is gonna be millibland vs millibalander, wtf!?!

"David Kelly. Almost certainly topped by someone's intelligence agency"

If you think that, you may be next. You want to know why no-one wishes to investigate this further?

FEAR

Tron – you want proof of facts i give or my reason for my opinions I will give them. As for the CSJ stuff – again you claim it is research – it is not in any understanding of the word that I know of.

Thing is you continually assert stuff as true that can be easily debunked. You accept the propaganda from such outfits as the CSJ and claim it as research papers. its not its position papers – not the same at all. Research you find your data and come to conclusions – you attempt to be valid and reliable all that sort of troublesome stuff. You don't use couple and married as synonyms for example

Blood sports have no place in modern society. End of.

So why didn't they ban angling? Oh, that would be because Mike "hypocrite" Foster (the original proposer of the anti-hunting bill) happened to be an angler.

how can tax cuts have the same effect when people get a greater credit than the tax they pay?

I hate this but I have to agree with TJ on this. My wife's new part time, term time job at a school means she only pays around £250 a YEAR in tax yet we get around £500 a MONTH in credits, of which (IIRC) £130 is child allowance, £140 working tax credit and £230 childcare allowance.

We would be significantly worse off if they raise the income tax threshold to £10k and do away with some or all tax credits. Something like £1,430 a year worse off if they only do away with working tax credits in fact!

people get a greater credit than the tax they pay

Wow that is generous!

I didn't realise you could be credited more than you paid, to be fair.

However, you can't deny that tax credits have caused huge amounts of misery for some by virtue of their complexity, generally the poorest who struggled to understand the paperwork, and those who were overpaid and had to repay from an already meagre income.

I didn't realise you could be credited more than you paid, to be fair.

To be honest neither did we until our circumstances changed considerably last year. But still, the money we get each month (in working tax credit and childcare allowance) only just covers the cost of one day a week nursery costs for our twins.

And tron – there is no paperwork needed, all you do is call HMRC and tell them how much you earn and how much you pay for childcare (if applicable) and they work it out for you and credit your bank account.

Yourself or someone agreeing with you posts a load of stuff that isn't even logical and that's fine.

Go back to the topic then and keep arguing your point then instead of just using a ridiculous unproven thought experiment with little to no actual real world application/research or proof to support it and therefore your argument. See if the principle you apply, of altering the law as people avoid the law, also applies to other avoiders like say cash in hand workers, benefits cheats, speeding drivers,thiefs etc or
If you wish to argue with TJ feel free but dont have ago at me in the process return to the thread and use your intelect to defend your position
Hope that was clear enough for you to understand

tron – Member

I didn't realise you could be credited more than you paid, to be fair.

However, you can't deny that tax credits have caused huge amounts of misery for some by virtue of their complexity, generally the poorest who struggled to understand the paperwork, and those who were overpaid and had to repay from an already meagre income.

More bollox there – where did you read that? Its more right wing propaganda – yes there have been mistakes and it is a bit bureaucratic but it has made a real and huge difference to people – especially by virtue of the fact that it allows them to escape the poverty trap.

Overpayments are often written off – and its not complex to apply for at all.