How do you measure power, Nath? An FTP of 5 would see you right at the pointy-end of most cat2 races at the least.

Ha ha, interesting to read someone else’s take on the Paramount CRT road race – I was there too!

It’s fine to move up on the other side of the road, so long as you can see ahead and aren’t crossing a solid white line. If you need to barge your way back in in a hurry then indeed you might get a bit of flak. But if you stay on the wrong side of the road for too long then you’re asking for trouble either from oncoming traffic or the comissaire.

How did you get on? I wasn’t in the the bunch long enough to form much of an opinion, other than it was quick

I was probably only across the line for a couple of seconds, and moved back into a big space when someone ahead shouted car.

Matts- (on Nath’s behalf) previously a hired Stages, now a 4iiii.

It’s an interesting point though Nath- you should do your 40mins Threshold workout around Hillingdon and see what speed you can maintain at that power output. If it’s 26.5 or Higher, you could potentially already get away from the 3/4 Tuesday night race (with a bit of a dig to make a gap).

One of my team mates got his Cat 2 by riding everyone into the ground at Hillingdon with about 340w FTP and 79kg of bulk to carry around.

Rubbish sprint but at those numbers he just sat on the front and watched people fall away.

One of my clubmates gets around the e12 at HH with way less than that. And another regularly podiums/wins in the masters with less.

EDIT: That’s both less in W/Kg terms, and in absolute Watts.

Yeah I know on paper I’ve “got the power”.

But my race craft/confidence is lacking 😆

You should be turning up with your chest puffed out so far that nobody can overtake you 😆

I remember Weeksy saying to me after one of my early races “What do Nath and Blobby have that you don’t?” now I can safely say “5w/kg!” 😀

It will be very interesting to see how far the plan takes you power wise Nath- you’re absolutely smashing it out of the park every training session so I reckon you’ll carry on getting some large gains for a while……

And then buy a silly bike and go testing 😆

Edit- or a pair of trunks and start winning Triathalons 😯

nath, if you want to calibrate you PM properly, head for Hillingdon and give it the beans – Bikecalculator will give you a time for 11 laps – the Westerley Wednesday strava segment. 16.7 km on the drops on clinchers using the default setting at 340 Watts will give you a lap time of about 2:07 minutes, or 23:17 for the segment. The segment is anticlockwise.

See what you can do. On my TT bike 340 Watts would get me to 22:00. Not there yet 🙁

EDIT

you could potentially already get away from the 3/4 Tuesday night race

You won’t. Negative chase-down racing is the norm for the 3/4 pointsfest.

I struggle to maintain a constant power around Hillingdon, were as I can on the turbo trainer.

There would be no getting away on Tuesday nights, it’s too short and too many folk want points 😆

Unless his chain was dirty that day etc etc, in which case his PM could be showing 12w higher than Bikecalculator prediction and still be correct 😉 (Or rather his times would be correspondingly lower for 340w).

As DCRainmaker says, you need three power meters to prove the accuracy of one and the only way to be doing that is to fit them to different parts of the drivetrain where they’re sure to read differently anyway 😆

As long as your zero offset numbers aren’t showing any extreme anomalies, all that matters is that your relative w/kg measured with the same protocol is improving and your HR is generally getting lower for a given power output.

Oh, and that you’re putting it to good use in races opening cans of whoop ass 😆

@jd77…. The pace did seem to go a bit mad on lap 2 but it seemed to back off after that. I started to cramp on the 4th lap (too many beers on Saturday night maybe?) but managed to keep it in check and stay in the bunch. Was thinking about having a dig in the last couple of Km but it was wall to wall riders across the road and then people just started sitting up.

My power meter says it was an easier race than some of my training sessions but I forgot to calibrate it so it could have been way out.

Edit- or a pair of trunks and start winning Triathalons

WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

This thread was going so well, and then you have to go and ruin it!

Shocking.

😈

I can see it happening I tell ya. It starts with a park run, then an obsession with FTP, then he’ll buy some tri-bars and a wet suit and that will be it. A good Crit racer lost to the dark side 😆

😯 😯 😯 😯

Not happening!

Running was a winter thing pre-zwift & as a pace setter for the missus 😆

Turbos don’t count. And it not constant power you want to look at its Lap Power. That’s what I use. 320 on the climb and backing down to 280-290 when crossing the line. Just done 22 laps on the TT bike to get used to the new bars. Forgot my H R monitor, but 2:09 lap didn’t feel so hard. Westerley 10.3 on Wednesday and still aiming for 22:xx

all that matters is that your relative w/kg measured with the same protocol is improving and your HR is generally getting lower for a given power output.

Totally agree, but when you publicise your w/kg for others to compare with then you have to expect that people will question your number relatitve to their own, your results and known w/kg of other riders…

Yes of course- as Nath found out at the beginning of this thread with his Vortex power numbers 😆

Unless we all met up and rode the same Wattbike or something, quoting the figures from a regularly offset, strain gauge power meter seems perfectly legit to me.

I probably seem obtuse when I respond to TiReds logic about checking against Bikecalculator but aligning your PM to a theoretical algorithm is not the same as measuring what your body is outputting which is ultimately the point. As I say, a 10w loss from a dirty chain or a soft tyre could easily skew the data a long way- even Hillingdon isn’t a lab 😉

I’m happy that my equipment is functioning fine.

There was no discrepancy from moving to the stages to the 4iiii.

Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I’d push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!

I’d believe the algorithm over a PM, but I am a Physicist by training 😉 . Each PM has it’s own algorithm for estimating resistance change across a Wheatstone bridge/strain gauge plus rotational speed to find “power”. The exceptions are Powercal and Powerpod.

even Hillingdon isn’t a lab

You’d be surprised.

Fair play then nath. Please let me know when you’re turning up to 2/3s in the South East so that I don’t bother 😉

A crude but pretty good check of whether you’ve a genuinely high w/kg is Strava segment performance. 5w/kg should see you collecting KOMs without really trying. You can also check how your power output compares with other riders on specific segments. Obvs wind conditions etc can play a part but law of averages does kick in.

Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I’d push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!

Why not ?

TiRed-But still- the theoretical algorithm is making assumptions about lots of tiny details that added together, could be a long way out today and even further out tomorrow.
At least the algorithm computing the results from the strain gauges is consistent.

I’m happy that my equipment is functioning fine.

There was no discrepancy from moving to the stages to the 4iiii.

Unless there was money (large) involved there would be no way I’d push myself in a race as much as I do on an FTP test. I have to cycle home!!

8)

Interesting that you find you can push more on the turbo than in a race.

Heat accumulation and boredom does me in every time on a turbo.

Being shouted at in a break or seeing your avg mph close to 30 on a 10m TT however..

For ftp testing, I agree with Nath. On a public road like a TT, it’s not safe to go as deep as you can when all you have to do is stop pedalling like on the Turbo.
Likewise in a race, you need to safely get out of the way on the finishing straight and ride or drive home soon after- not conducive to finding the very edge of performance.

I use Sufferfest and find that ample distraction for the test. Any of the Zwift fans reading this will know you can push much harder on the Turbo if you have the right motivation.

Turbos don’t count. And it not constant power you want to look at its Lap Power. That’s what I use.

Interesting that. It’s just measuring something different. Turbo testing and you’re likely at optimal cadence and putting out a very even effort. Outdoors your power is much more variable with gear changes, wind, traffic, corners, roundabouts, uneven roads. For a hard effort outdoors I find that to get X avg power I typically need to be riding at X + 15W (or there abouts.) So really it’s more like a hard over/under session. Which might be ok, but it is a different thing. So for me, if I want to average, say, 300W outdoors it’s harder than on the turbo as I’m mostly riding at around 315W, with efforts way over for accelerations. Zwift and a controlled turbo makes indoors a bit more realistic but it’s still nowhere near being the equivalent of outdoors.

Partly for those reasons I tend not to get too hung up on power targets when riding outdoors, and use a mix of power, HR, and a bit of judgement on RPE. For me I think trying to ride to power outdoors is actually a bit detrimental, increasingly just try and ride quickly rather than try and chase some power average as that’s what I need to be doing when racing.

As an example, for a 10 mile TT I could ride to a power target or try and ride the course quickly. Riding to power will typically give a higher avg power but a slower overall time. And at the end of a race there aren’t any prizes for highest avg power 😉

Which value you use as FTP (indoor or outdoor) I don’t think matters much as long as you’re aware that it’s different and plan around it. You could argue that outdoors is more significant as that’s where you’re racing. Or you could argue that indoors is more significant as it represents some ideal steady state max.

The flip side of what you are saying there though MrBlobby, and the reason it’s hard to get the average power outdoors- is rest. Micro rests as the bike accelerates under gravity and takes some torque away from your legs.
Indoors- there’s none. Well some but it instantly stings you again.

Which was Trainerroads original USP of course- very pure and concentrated stress.

Also, there’s nothing to stop you FTP testing on a rolling course in Zwift on the TT (no draft) bike. That would be similar to doing it around Hillingdon.

I’d argue too that indoor and outdoor FTP’s don’t have to be different- they just used to be because indoor trainer set-ups were ruuubbbisssshhhh 🙂

With a smart trainer and all the fans, you have the best location for consistent testing.

The flip side of what you are saying there though MrBlobby, and the reason it’s hard to get the average power outdoors is rest. Micro rests as the bike accelerates under gravity and takes some torque away from your legs.

Well yes, I thought that obvious 😉 Not that, for example, 5 seconds of not pedalling going round a roundabout actually feels much like a rest, and then you need to get back on the power hard to get your speed back up. It’s like a very random over/under session.

I’d argue too that indoor and outdoor FTP’s don’t have to be different-

Depends how you define it. FTP is typically used to refer to your steady state max for 60 minutes. If you’re riding outdoors it’s usually not steady state. I don’t think it matters really as long as you’re consistent about it and take it in to consideration in application.

Though obviously for forum willy waving you’ll want to use the largest value of the two 😀

But more subtly than the big turn too- every time you hit negative gradient until your legs catch up. That’s why you have to target 315 because you’ll often be ‘resting’ at 285 without realising it 😉

But more subtly than the big turn too- every time you hit negative gradient until your legs catch up. That’s why you have to target 315 because you’ll often be ‘resting’ at 285 without realising it

Yup, same with gear changes, gusts of wind, mild draft from a passing car, etc. Might not be that noticeable until you’re trying to ride at the limit. And if you’re attempting to ride to a power target it can result in a frustratingly ridiculous power chasing effort 🙂

None of my outdoor rides really earn me any KOMs – think I have 4? lol

I like this one the best, it’s not even a KOM ha, 13th out of 50,000 people 😆 https://www.strava.com/segments/5525410

I guess one of the reasons I don’t have a pile of KOMs is I’m never at full pace – if I’m outdoors and not racing then it’s a Z1/Z2 work. Also I’ve got 50k other people to contend with 😆

Segments under a minute are prone to being skewed by slight errors in GPS. Under 30s and it’s a bit of a lottery.

Power for lap times at hillingdon without drafting are in excellent agreement with predictions. I also use lap heart rate too and again find a good relationship.

My FTP is my 25 mile TT or one hr circuit race power (provided I was gunning I and not sitting in).

Just the action of being in a race is enough for me to put down extra watts.

Basically anything reproducible is good enough for training. A like MrB, I use time, heart rate and power for pacing.

I guess one of the reasons I don’t have a pile of KOMs is I’m never at full pace – if I’m outdoors and not racing then it’s a Z1/Z2 work.

Yep that’s probably it.

You should just get out racing again, hone your racecraft and you’ll probably be able to get on a team and get a small level of sponsorship.

You should just get out racing again, hone your racecraft and you’ll probably be able to get on a team and get a small level of sponsorship.

Im a bit bemused why he’s not personally. To do all this training and speed just seems a bit wasted without putting it into a race or 5.

Im a bit bemused why he’s not personally. To do all this training and speed just seems a bit wasted without putting it into a race or 5.

Me too, esp since the whole point of this is to try road racing. Also the idea of choosing to ride indoors in July and August just seems a bit bonkers

@mtbtomo – Had a look at your strava from the race and we had very similar weighted average power (my NP for the race was 239W for 2hr20). Shows you what difference racecraft can make

I’ll be racing on 12th, 19th and 26th August – these are my target races.

I’m already sponsored (they’ve been providing me with nutrition and bits of kit) – hopefully I’ll be out in their kit soon (they’re rebranding) 😛

Me too, esp since the whole point of this is to try road racing.

Well I guess he’s done what he intended, he’s tried road racing. I know quite a few riders who try racing, get their 3rd cat, then don’t really do much after that. Though I don’t think that’ll be Nath.

Also the idea of choosing to ride indoors in July and August just seems a bit bonkers

Is a bit curious, though easy to get sucked into it when following a structured plan, even though it’s often to the detriment of outdoor riding.

Edit…

I’ll be racing on 12th, 19th and 26th August – these are my target races.

😀

Which ones are those?

BC West Thames Saturday Round 1

BC West Thames Saturday Round 2

BC West Thames Saturday Round 3

Regarding indoor/outdoor, I live in London – cycling is crap for the first/return 30-45 mins.

Outdoors: Mon-Fri commuting (18 miles per day) + Long rides on Saturday & Sunday
Indoors: Tues 345w for 40 mins, Thurs/Fri are sprint drills – but I sometimes ditch the Friday one in favour of traffic light sprinting on the commute home.

So the VAST majority of my cycling is outside, it’s just hard to do the Tues night one outdoors!!