Yes Matts- that’s my hunch. The workout prescribes easy spin / coasting between work intervals for a reason.

I’ve found another solution though- I’ll just skip tomorrow’s Zwift race and do my AE intervals tomorrow instead. That way I can race properly on Saturday.

That’s a nice meaty Build week too.
Mon- rest
Tue- AE intervals
Wed- Z1 or Z2 if fresh.
Thu- ME intervals
Fri- Z1/Rest
Sat- Race @ Hillingdon
Sun- Group ride.

Yes they are from Strava. Don’t read too much into absolute values, just trends for your own data. The model by Bannister in Strava has the same parameters for me, you, and all those very fit second cat juniors iv spent the weekend chasing. Mine has climbed since January on a regime of three week high volume training. Not high enough though 😆 I clearly need the intervals for explosive power to stop getting dropped!

With regards to training, I think hard intervals when fatigued are likely to be a better strategy for road racing. Banging out explosive efforts when you are fresh is great. The problem is that if you want to race for longer, you can’t just simulate 120 minutes of race, followed by more intense effort to avoid being dropped (not unless you have lots of time and a high boredom threshold).

Focussing solely on threshold will only get you so far and, is ideal for the one hour circuit races. But I noticed a big jump to road racing where I was only good for about 75-90 minutes, and an even bigger jump to 2/3 road racing, where I’ve pushed out that level to 120 minutes. Now I need the final push to consistently finish in the bunch.

Still at about objective 3 at the 2/3 level 🙁 ! About 6 for my 3rd cat road, and 9 for masters circuit racing. It never gets easier.

It depends what adaptation you are trying to elicit from your body. If you want to improve your max sprint power, then you need to be dong intervals that hit very close to your true max value. If not, then you are not effectively stressing the neuromuscular power systems. Imagine going to the gym after running a marathon and then doing some max deadlifts. You might be able to pick up half your max to rep. That isn’t going to help you improve your max deadlift. It will hurt. It may improve your fitness if you recover properly afterwards. But you are not training effectively.

The same goes for VO2Max. If you want to elicit maximum gain to improve power at VO2, then you need to be working high up in the band. Working low in the band for short periods at the end of other efforts will definitely help your aerobic fitness. And it will help you learn to suffer. But it will not be as effective at improving power at VO2Max as targeted intervals.

Sessions that could help these race efforts are 5x4min pyramids, (95%-100%-105%-100%-95%) with 10s efforts at each 4min. Or over/unders with 2x15x sprints, 15s rest before the start. 3min under (95%) 3min over (105%) x 3. (so 1 minute for the sprints then 18 minutes of o/u). Then 10 minutes spinning before repeating. So this is basically a mixed-up 2 x 20 session with the sprints to deplete your anaerobic capacity such that the threshold work is really unpleasant. 😆

A good way to improve race endurance is to do some focussed group rides. Go out on a know route, or a route with a loop and then get into a working chaingang and ride hard for a couple of hours. Then spin home. You can mix things up by agreeing some ‘games’ to play during the ride. Maybe go on a hilly ride and have a KOM challenge where you award points for first and second up each pre-determined hill. Another good game is playing hare and hounds (Nath would probably like this one!). Elect one rider as the boss. You ride tempo in a chaingang and the leader taps one guy to be the ‘hare’. Some time in the next couple of minutes, this rider then launches an attack out of the bunch. The leader lets them take a few hundred meters of a gap and then instructs the hounds to chase (blowing a bugle optional). The group has to work together in the chaingang to pull the attacker back. When the catch is made the leader taps another rider. This one works best if you can ride on a fairly quiet circuit to avoid stopping at junctions and lights.

I have to say, the Newbury chaingang the other week with 8 of us was almost as much fun as a race. People drilling it off the front and racing every climb.

I think that’s it, if you have a very specific hole in your power curve, you aren’t going to fix it very quickly by riding at that existing power number.

In the plan, I’ve only actually got 6-8 sessions in the next 6 weeks in which to add the Anaerobic fitness I need to complete the picture so every second of pain counts 😀

Slight thread hijack, but mostly on topic.
What do people think to the training benefit of race pace group rides? Starting today I have the option to do a 1hr APR on a Tuesday – so 40 min easy spin out, 1hr hard group riding, 40 min spin home.

Not done them in a few years as i’ve generally ridden solo and done some form of interval session, but I do enjoy them. The main thing putting me off is I find they take a lot of time to recover from and i’ll probably lose volume/quality later in the week.

I’ve found another solution though- I’ll just skip tomorrow’s Zwift race and do my AE intervals tomorrow instead. That way I can race properly on Saturday.

A good solution, given the whole point of this is to race bikes.

@Fifeandy I found them extremely useful for raising my fitness in short order (though from a relatively low base). As for recovery, there’s some interesting thoughts on training while fatigued here

@Fifeandy I found them extremely useful for raising my fitness in short order (though from a relatively low base). As for recovery, there’s some interesting thoughts on training while fatigued here

My experience too – the first time I did them (2010 i think) I was flying after 6 weeks.

I try to be quite careful with my recovery as A) i’ve got an underlying medical problem that slightly compromises recovery, and B) i’ve been bitten by over-training before (probably as much due to A) as any massive training load).

I’m going very well already this season on a diet of only big gear(strength) work and z1/z2 volume, so interested to see if I can step it up a bit further with some dedicated muscular endurance and anaerobic work.

As Friel said on Twitter the other day (yes I know, I’m such a fanboi 😆 ) :-

Never tired; never fit. Hard workouts produce the potential for greater fitness as evidenced by the resulting fatigue.

I’m going very well already this season on a diet of only big gear(strength) work and z1/z2 volume, so interested to see if I can step it up a bit further with some dedicated muscular endurance and anaerobic work.

If nothing else, its more fun than solo training, and it’ll freshen you up psychologically

I’m going very well already this season on a diet of only big gear(strength) work and z1/z2 volume

What do you mean by “strength work”? Track starts / 10s sprints?

What do people think to the training benefit of race pace group rides?

Our Tuesday evening rides are effectively 2/3 breakaways! The fastest group is usually too much for me unless I’m really warned up! The one hour E123 race at Hillingdon is normally easier, then I ride a 50 km recovery ride home.

It depends what adaptation you are trying to elicit from your body. If you want to improve your max sprint power, then you need to be dong intervals that hit very close to your true max value

I need the adaptation to hit 400+ Watts after 2 hrs of threshold. No point having a great sprint, if you can’t stay with the bunch to execute it at the finish.

What do you mean by “strength work”? Track starts / 10s sprints?

Force may be a more accurate description than strength.
I took a look at Friels triangle of abilities 2 years ago and decided I could do all the muscular endurance work in the world, but it wouldn’t help if I couldn’t push hard enough on the pedals.
Saw some gains during winter 2015/2016 by adding big gear work and delaying move to 2×20’s etc.
This year I decided to take it to extremes and do nothing but rides designed to build force or z1/2 rides, and i’m delighted with progress so far.
Trying to keep it mixed to avoid adapting to only one session.
GCN 40 min strength session (1,2,3,4,3,2,1min 60rpm pyramid) has been a favourite when weather is poor.
(5×1)x3 @ 60rpm
Some standing starts (on a hill)
Hilly (and windy!) singlespeed rides.

Probably not a program that will work for most, but being built like a stick man and spending a few years seeing very gradual improvements doing more traditional intervals I decided to risk a year trying something different.

I ride fixed for the same reasons. Nothing better than grinding along at 60-70rpm into a headwind with NO option but to press on. And I’m also a stick build. My different was volume this year. Just passed 6000 km. Intensity comes from racing. I can’t stand indoor riding.

I need the adaptation to hit 400+ Watts after 2 hrs of threshold

For what duration though?
Let’s say it’s for two minutes- nice crisp fresh two minute interval sessions would get you that adaptation much quicker wouldn’t they?

I think this is where the relationship between your power zones and your HR zones (decoupling?) comes into play. You need enough power capacity at each stage of your power curve to allow for being fatigued (decoupled) during a race??

The thing is, the only real time you can to proper ‘strength’ work on the bike is 100% all out sprint efforts like track starts. Anything less than that is just hard endurance work. Even flat out for a minute pace is simply far too much below utilising your maximal muscular force to build muscle. This is why track sprinters spend so much time in the gym.

So then you’re left with the question: Why would I do a 1 minute interval session 700W @ 50rpm vs 700W @ 90rpm?

Needing strength to ride into a headwind is a complete red herring. There’s no reason why you should be forced to ride harder into a headwind. It’s just a mental thing that you feel should always be riding above a certain speed and so you try to pick it up when you slow down. But you get the same effect from just riding faster into a light headwind. Just change gear! Yes, there is a slight difference in pedalling momentum when you’re climbing a hill, or riding slowly into a stiff breeze. But you don’t have to grind it out to do the same Watts.

That’s interesting Matts. Obviously Force workouts are a part of The Cyclist’s Training bible but it seems Joe Friel has actually modified his thoughts on them since then and come up with a more ‘Maximal effort’ based workout than the 50rpm Threshold workouts described in the book….

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/11/force-reps.html

And in fact, he now describes the workouts in the book as being ‘strength maintenance’ for keeping the Weight Training gains made in the gym at the non-specific Base phase of training rather than as a method of increasing force.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/11/base-1-training-part-4.html

Can’t wait for his new book this Autumn 🙂

Looking at other riders power profiles, every lap of yesterday’s road race required a 700 Watt sprint for about 20 seconds just to stay with the bunch. I managed two of these. I do 20/40 sprints to 800 Watts on my commute, but there is still a big difference between these sprints and a race.

matts, I note you don’t ride fixed – what is this “change gear” 😉

I created myself an ambitious Pyramid set on the Zwift workout mode and failed! It was 3,4,5,5,4,3 @ 380w with 4 min rests and I didn’t complete the second 5 or 4 fully 🙁
I don’t think Erg mode helps as it makes it hard to shift the effort around between cadences so I reckon I’ll get them done outside next week.

Still, I got 20minutes of Vo2 Max+ into the legs which I doubt I’d have managed in a race!!

What’s your threshold do you reckon at the moment, CH? Was it just over 300?

I think I would struggle to do that set at 125% of threshold indoors. Outdoors on a hill would be touch and go.

Matts,
Yes- a few caveats though.
One, my last FTP test was indoors so probably conservative.
Two, after my Build 1 weeks, I think my Threshold has risen anyway- all my HR zones seem to suggest so.
Three, I had to use my Kickr Snap without the Stages in order to access ERG mode and it’s generally a couple of percent lower so I wanted to account for that.
Four, I did a set of three minute Vo2 intervals plus a couple of 3 to 4 minute hill climbs the other day and was 370-395 in all of them so I knew I could get close.
And it was meant to be tough 🙂

As I say, in normal mode up the Zwift mountain or outdoors it would have been achievable I think.

The book says CP6, which from Strava Power curve is 360w and at that, I would have smashed them I think.

@TiRed – Is that for riders your size? What sort of W/Kg would that be for you?

I’ve definitely lost some top-end power since I stopped going to the gym about 5 years back – even accounting for the fact I’m 3-4Kg lighter now. Some of it was probably also a lack of plyometrics since I stopped playing volleyball. Do you incorporate any gym work or explosive leg work into your training? As well as doing plenty of anaerobic intervals to boost your ability to repeat those efforts, you can also push up your max so that each one of the efforts in a slightly lower percentage of max, that way you burn slightly less of a match each time.

This is somewhat of a do as I say not do as I do given what I just typed, but deadlifting and squatting is a really good thing for a cyclist to do for their general fitness. Obviously you don’t want to be trying to bulk up like The Rock, but some load bearing is good for bone density and the closed-chain compound movements are good for muscle balance.

That’s my clubmate. Same size as me – 10 W/kg! The matchbox was already empty after six hours of racing over the two previous days 😉

I don’t do gym, but could do with a little load bearing, perhaps a small kettle ball. Just for bone mineral density. I like 20/40s on my fixed wheel. But 800 Watts is pretty much where it all stops for me.

@matts, afraid my scales and measuring tape disagree about the efforts not being close enough to maximal to build muscle. Up about 1.5kg and 2cm round each thigh since end of last season.

Decided to go for the apr tonight, and glad i did, showed what i’ve been doing has been working. Went with the middle group which wasn’t? working very well, but felt super comfortable. Fast group came past at the bottom of a shallow climb and i just latched on and was able to stick with it and do some short turns on the front.

Well done Fifeandy. Sounds fun 🙂

First round of the Castle Combe summer series tomorrow. Anyone going?

Sounds fun

In a leg burning, hyperventilating kinda way 😀
Definite highlight was getting gapped slightly at the top of the last climb and the full gas 40mph chase down the other side to get back on before the flat.

You are doing the standing hill starts though. That is definitely a session that is focussed on NMP.

But the (5×1)x3 @ 60rpm session is anaerobic endurance. You’re doing 15 sets of 60 reps (per leg).

Yes. higher force, anaerobic level, exercises will result in some muscle growth. Studies of weight lifting (people working out for personal fitness, not Olympic lifting) show that people who did set of 30-40 rather than <10 reps did build muscle, but their 1 rep max did not increase as much. If you want to be able to push out a higher max sprint, you need to be able to generate significantly more maximal force on pedals. This is the adaptation that you get from absolute max force workouts.

EDIT: From my personal experience, about 6-7 years ago I could hit just under 20W/Kg for 5s power. Without any weights/plyo I’m now down to about 17.5. I’m certainly an all-round much stronger rider now though.

Looking at other riders power profiles, every lap of yesterday’s road race required a 700 Watt sprint for about 20 seconds just to stay with the bunch. I managed two of these. I do 20/40 sprints to 800 Watts on my commute, but there is still a big difference between these sprints and a race.

All I can say is Ouch!

This is somewhat of a do as I say not do as I do given what I just typed, but deadlifting and squatting is a really good thing for a cyclist to do for their general fitness. Obviously you don’t want to be trying to bulk up like The Rock, but some load bearing is good for bone density and the closed-chain compound movements are good for muscle balance.

I don’t do gym, but could do with a little load bearing, perhaps a small kettle ball. Just for bone mineral density

You could try some bodyweight plyometrics. When i was playing Ice Hockey i used to like jump lunges/squats and the Russian Box, occasionally using the tabata protocol

On my to-do list is to get a squat rack for the bike shed, but finding the time to do a decent block of weight training between the Cx season and the summer has proved a bit difficult, especially when I needed to make big gains in aerobic/muscle endurance to be in a position to even think about road racing this summer.

I’ve been doing the occasional Les Mills “Body Pump” classes with the missus at the local gym 😳 Quite fun and really feel it in the legs afterwards (it takes my upper body a week to recover haha). I prefer to be told what to do and as the missus is friends with the instructor I get picked on a lot 😆

Finally got to where I want on this mornings weigh in:
70kg
20.9 BMI
13.2% Fat (need to work on this…)
65.6% Water

My FTP is very realistic at the moment at 315W (4.5w/kg), I’ve been using it a lot to help with Zwift racing.

Feeling in good shape & looking forward to getting back out there once I sort out other things….

Feeling in good shape & looking forward to getting back out there once I sort out other things….

I’m not entirely sure why this issue exists, but feel free to dismiss as it’s private. But if you’re training, riding, etc, why not just ride in races, for £20 you may as well ?

Slightly unemployed at the moment 😆

Even though I’ve got enough savings to last me many years, last time I tried racing I couldn’t get my head into it. I was thinking about the situation and interviews etc, once I’ve sorted an income I’ll be back. 🙂

I may have to rethink this week now! Today was the first time in weeks that a workout compromised how I felt the following day- I felt hanging!!
I reckon I’ll get enough Muscular Endurance work on saturday and Sunday to skip the planned intervals so tomorrow is now complete rest or 30mins Z1 and Friday just an hours Z1.

Then I’m excited about Saturday!

I found racing to take my mind off everything. And based on my year, I’d probably not be in a very good place without it. I brushed off two serious crashes without a moment’s thought.

And math if you want fun and cheap, the Hounslow 10 tomorrow night is £3. It’s £25 for the whole season. And you get a decent training ride to and from Chobham common.

I’m the opposite 😆

I can muster enough concentration for just spinning my legs as hard as possible (zwift) but turning, traffic, and being around other riders is a bit out of reach mentally at the moment.

Won’t be long (hopefully) 😆

I love the fact that once the Comm says GO! there’s nothing else to focus on for an hour! Just living right in the moment!

Wait until Mrs Nath-to-be pops out a sprog- you’ll long for an hour to yourself without being pulled in ten different directions 😆

What with a few months of new-job nerves and wedding planning, I fear your racing is Zwift only for the foreseeable future!!! 😉

Lol!!!!!!

‘Someone I know’ has just claimed that not only is he the fastest rider in Richmond Park but that there’s no chaingangs in the area that are worth going out with as he would just ride away from them* 😀

Any of you Londoners care to recommend him a chaingang that will pull his pants down and give him a sound thrashing??

*I may be paraphrasing a little for dramatic effect but not much 😆

That’s not what I said 😆

What I did say is I can’t remember the last time someone overtook me in Richmond park 🙄

Nath is always welcome on our Tuesday evening club rides. Will need to serve an apprenticeship before he’s allowed into the (gulp) fast group. BTW the fast group like to see an NP of 330 Watts for 90 minutes, towed by Liam, who is currently the 11th fastest 10 rider of all time. I ride with the next group 😆

No-one left to come past when you’re last.

😆 😉 😆