2retro4u
Marin County, Cali

If you’d “invented mountain biking” but all your other friends had come out of it as millionaires with their own bike companies, you’d probably be on here throwing roses at yourself, promoting your book about how you “invented mountain biking”

Before you speculate on my motives, you might want to ask me, because I’m listening.

I shared an adventure with Gary, Joe and Tom that changed the world. I don’t begrudge any of them their success because I watched them all earn it. These guys are about the dearest friends I have.

I was the only one in that group taking notes, and I am by far the best writer, so it is up to me to tell our story.

Other than making enough to get by, money has never driven me. The reason my book will sell is not because I argue with people I don’t know on a website forum. It will sell because it is the sh!t.

So what we’re saying is, Kelly invented the commercialisation of mountain biking.

He did for cycling what Alan Sugar did for the top flight of football, in creating the English Premier League.

That can only be celebrated.

I invented Freeride in 1968.

Her name was Janice and she was from Minnesota.

I think we’re looking at mountain biking from a couple of different standpoints:

1, Riding bikes over and down mountains but not using the roads
2, Creating bikes and selling them to do the above, thus helping create the “sport”

I don’t think Charlie has ever suggested they did #1 but he is saying they did #2. I can’t see any reason to doubt that.

It will sell because it is the sh!t.

I’m really looking forward to not reading this book.

I’m really looking forward to not reading this book.

^ This! This in spades!! 😯

I got this book given to me in 2008 – The Birth of Dirt.

Are we reinventing the wheel? 🙂

he is pretty clear about what he claims to have done and what he did not do and he can back it all up.

We have a”founding father” if you will and all we want to do is rip the piss out of him and say we wont read his book
Yes folk have have always ridden bikes over rough terrain but he was a player in the sport and the creation of what we all ride today.

The reaction says more about STW, and some folks, than him 😳

I bought this back in 1990:

Has Charlie’s story along with an excellent section by Nic Crane on expedition cycling.
Some very interesting history about how the bikes evolved.
Well worth picking up a copy.

I’m quite looking forward to the new one.

Whatever CK and his mates did, it ended up with me being able to afford a Mountain Bike in 1991, so that makes me happy.
And that bike I bought in 1991 can be traced directly to the first production MTB’s made and promoted by CK and his mates.

As to whether they invented ‘Mountain Biking’?
They came up with the term in the first place – which means that they get the privilege of defining it however they like. 🙂

Part of my issue here is that Charlie waded in with a rather abrasive opening gambit:

Talk is cheap. Show me the photos from 1976. If he “invented the mountain bike,” why doesn’t he get any credit for it?

Which seemed unnecessarily prickly, and something which has continued throughout his posts on this thread. Whilst he shouldn’t have to justify himself to a group of primarily UK based mountain bikers he’s doing very little to ingratiate himself and make me want to buy/read the book.

It also reminds me of those adverts from years ago about who invented the lightbulb and telephone (wasn’t it?), the original inventor doesn’t always get all the credit!

It’s a bit embarrassing isn’t it Junkyard?
I only started mountain biking in 1988, but even then, the magazines all talked about Repack with a kind of reverence. The route from that to what I was doing was perfectly clear.
Of course my dad would say that he was riding the same trails on his road bike in the 50s, but it never felt like the same thing to me.

Of all the things we could be chatting about with Charlie Kelly and people just prefer to throw mud! Don’t get it.

We have a”founding father” if you will and all we want to do is rip the piss out of him and say we wont read his book

“We” aren’t doing that. A couple of posters on this thread are.
I’m sure Seekay has dealt with his share of cocky dickheads in his time though.

Maybe I’m coming across as a ‘cocky dickhead’, I really don’t care tbh 🙂

Here’s how the thread has progressed in my eyes:

Blokes goes on holiday, meets a guy that claims to be a pioneer of the sport, posts about it when he gets back. Within a few posts, repack pider wades in with a pretty abrasive post and says that the bloke is a bullshitter and tells everyone to buy his book if they want to get the real story. Various posters take the piss out of a bloke pushing his forthcoming book this way…..some uber fanbois get a bit upset and say that it reflects poorly on the forum as a whole etc.

Fair play if you invented the ‘sport of mtbing’, A quick flick through repack riders post history shows several threads (a number of which he started) blowing his own trumpet. My favourite is when he claimed that a ‘small group of hippies went on to change the world’! That people are so narcissistic is a revelation to me 🙂

Stands corrected by Brant – fair point

What a strange thread

Yossarian is the one making the most sense here.

I’m with Tom B on this one.

Don’t give a monkey’s who he is (never heard of him before this thread), but his posting style and that stupid avatar make it really hard to take anything from him seriously.

Move over the Angry Singlespeeder, here comes the Angry Hippie!

Tom B – Member

My favourite is when he claimed that a ‘small group of hippies went on to change the world’! That people are so narcissistic is a revelation to me

Is it not true? Like I say, whatever else you believe or don’t believe, you can trace your mountain bike to the stumpjumper and it came directly from the breezer, this whole industry, and the sport as it is, came from there. That’s kind of a big deal.

Sometimes an idea just has its time, maybe it would have come along by some other means but it wasn’t just the idea of riding offroad- it was the combination of people and events that led to racing, custom frames, then full retail bikes, then mass market, and that was unique. Like Charlie says, lots of people had ridden offroad, but they didn’t leave the mark.

Saccades – Member

I’m with Tom B on this one.

Don’t give a monkey’s who he is (never heard of him before this thread), but his posting style and that stupid avatar make it really hard to take anything from him seriously.

Probably best to do some research before deciding whether to ‘take him seriously’ or not?
🙂

AlexSimon – Member

………but even then, the magazines all talked about Repack with a kind of reverence. The route from that to what I was doing was perfectly clear.

Exactly.
The mainstream MTB explosion – the designers, the bikes, the advertising, the ethos, even in some cases the bloody bike names were directly drawn from the activities of CK and co.

I think because the move to the mainstream was so all encompassing, because it took off in a way that surprised so many people, we NEEDED a back story, a mythology, a way to make it fit.

And that’s what we have, whether you buy into it or not.

I read that birth of dirt book again recently. It seems to be the source text for that link that was on the first page. No doubt any new books will also contain the same info too. No one doubts the veracity of the story.
From reading the history of repack and from what I recall of bikes in the late 70s to 80s (I was born in 1970), what happened as a result of fisher Kelly breeze ritchey et al is that bikes for riding off road went mainstream.
Like countless others my group of mates would take drop barred road bikes, fit cowhorns and a wheel off a grifter with the sturmey archer 3 speed hub fixed in gear one and use them for riding around on home made jumps, on dirt tracks bombholes etc. they would snap and we would get another frame from a skip because you couldn’t buy them in the shops.
Then some time in the 80s “atb’s” or mountain bikes or mtbs or whatever appeared that you could buy and that just worked. That is the bit that Charlie Kelly and his hippy mates made happen and I’m pleased the he did.

We have a”founding father” if you will and all we want to do is rip the piss out of him and say we wont read his book

I hope I’m not doing that, but I stand by my point that Charlie and his buddies – for all the good they did for it – did not invent mountain biking. perhaps DH racing, certainly the commercialisation, and definitely the “coolness” of “MTB”, but the act of riding bicycles off road (which is what we do) had been done for a loooooong time before they did it.
Why should we ignore those who had ridden bikes off road all those years before? They are a part of the story too.

the act of riding bicycles off road (which is what we do) had been done for a loooooong time before they did it.
Why should we ignore those who had ridden bikes off road all those years before? They are a part of the story too.

Indeed. Worth remembering people like Walter Robinson, who didn’t invent a new type of bicycle but just rode bikes over mountains.

FML, Repack Rider please please keep posting that irritating picture.

I’m with Tom B on this one.

Don’t give a monkey’s who he is (never heard of him before this thread), but his posting style and that stupid avatar make it really hard to take anything from him seriously.

Maybe if you did know who he was and the part he had to play in getting mountain biking (as the sport we know and love today) off the ground and out to the masses you would understand why he feels compelled to post the way he has.

Fair enough his first response was a bit prickly, but maybe you would be too if someone had just claimed to invent mountain biking when you had such a huge part to play in it 😉

Some people have already said this though, but it’s worth saying again:

Nobody is claiming to have invented riding bikes offroad, or over mountains, What Ritchey, Kelly, Fisher, Breeze et-al, did was help bring the sport to the masses as a genuine bona-fide ‘thing’ rather than just something a few people did on custom bicycles pretty much un-noticed by other bike riders.

You have them, the Repack Riders, and the companies that started building mountain bikes commercially shortly after to thank for the sport being where it is today, that’s not to say that it wouldn’t have happened another way or elsewhere in the world given time, as people have been riding off-road for as long as people have been riding, but the sport as it is didn’t develop elsewhere, for a multitude of reasons, and that doesn’t take away from, or belittle the work of the other custom builders in the UK, or anywhere else in the world, it’s just the way it happened.

wrecker – Member
…Why should we ignore those who had ridden bikes off road all those years before? They are a part of the story too…

We’re not ignoring those who rode offroad before. They rode the mountains, but they didn’t ride mountainbikes.

I was riding the mountains in Scotland back in the 60s, but there were not a lot doing it, and for a good reason.

The bikes were too fragile for purpose. Forks would bend, frames would crumple, wheels would taco, and the soft rims would dent and buckle easily. You had to ride warily because even the smallest impact could wreck your bike. The brakes were shite too.

Anything like a soft track meant shouldering the bike as did anything even remotely technical because otherwise you risked a long walk home with a broken bike. (Very few could afford cars back then).

I suggest to anyone who disputes the claims CK is making, why not build yourself a bike of the vintage just before his era, and take it for a ride over one of the easier passes? I suggest the Corrieyairack for Scottish riders, it was quite popular with us.

No cheating, no modern rims or brakes – you will already have the advantage of modern tyres that do not split easily. Oh, and gears optional, many of the lads back then were on fixed.

Then see how much actual riding you do.

Post up the result here and then tell us if you are prepared to call that bike a mountainbike.

Probably best to do some research before deciding whether to ‘take him seriously’ or not?

No need to do research, from the waffle on here he was obviously someone that was involved in the “birth” of modern MTB – His posting persona is that of an over aggressive “Look at me! Look at me!” type clown who I have no time for.

Never heard of him before, won’t care if I never hear about him again – but happily I’ll be able to recognise his posts in the future to ignore.

Nobody is claiming to have invented riding bikes offroad, or over mountains

That’s not what Charlie’s last post suggests.
The act of riding, not what we are riding is the important bit (to me).
Yes, we owe the repack dudes a huge debt of gratitude. The certainly shaped mountain bikes and the sport/pastime would likely not be what we recognise as mountain biking today. But the act of mountain biking or storm passing or whatever term you want to use predates them.
Charlie seems like a cool dude. But I’m not going to get all fawny eyed just because someone is “repack”; I think sinyard is an asshat.

Nobody is claiming to have invented riding bikes offroad, or over mountains

That’s not what Charlie’s last post suggests.

Which bit exactly?

He isn’t claiming to be the first person to ever ride a bike offroad or over a moutain, he even mentions a couple of times in his posts previous riders/bikes and the RSF, so not sure how you could have got that from his posts?

He’s saying he was involved in getting mountain biking as the sport it is today off the ground, which is very much true.

We all know offroad biking existed before hand, but either in different forms*, or as non-commercial, and a largely disorganised pursuit.

Then things changed a bit.

But I’m not going to get all fawny eyed just because someone is “repack”

Nor would I, there’s been many varied personalities involved in the history of cycling and even in the short history of mountain biking, but personal feelings do not change the the history, and internet persona aside, you have to recognise the parts everyone played.

* And still does now, off-road != moutain biking and vice versa.

I find it a bit sad that Geoff Apps and Clelands get so little comment when people talk about the history of off-road cycling, a divergent path on the ‘riding bikes in the hills’ story but important and interesting none-the less.

2retro4u
Marin County, Cali

Changed the avatar to a race photo from 1978, before helmets were required and before the term “mountain bike” had ever been coined. Better?

If someone feels the need to tell people about their accomplishments then it sort of ruins the image of it for me a bit.

Several of my friends and I took part in something amazing, and it led to everything this website is about. I was taking extensive notes while it happened. I was offered a lot of money for my story.

What would you do? Turn down the money?

Of course you would.

Here’s the Amazon link.

He’s saying he was involved in getting mountain biking as the sport it is today off the ground, which is very much true.

He’s poo pooing anyone who’s daring to challenge his version of events. There’s at least three quotes from him in this thread along the lines of “talk is cheap”, “where’s the evidence” etc, and his tone is unnecessarily aggressive IMO.

I fully accept that CK and the Repack guys commercialised mountain biking and made it the industry it is today, and that’s a fantastic achievement. However, I don’t buy they were first to ever conduct a downhill race (which Charlie has said on this thread several times) purely on the strength that they have results, nor would I credit them with “inventing mountain biking”.

Here’s the Amazon link.

This is a UK based site – better off finding the Amazon.co.uk link, although then it really should go in the classifieds…

I don’t buy they were first to ever conduct a downhill race (which Charlie has said on this thread several times) purely on the strength that they have results,

Just out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you? Obviously SOMEBODY did it first, and I have the photos and the results of my efforts. It’s only been 38 years since I put on my first race, and I would think any competing claims would have surfaced by now.

We have a “founding father” if you will and all we want to do is rip the piss out of him and say we wont read his book
Yes folk have have always ridden bikes over rough terrain but he was a player in the sport and the creation of what we all ride today.

The reaction says more about STW, and some folks, than him

It’s a bit embarrassing isn’t it Junkyard?
I only started mountain biking in 1988, but even then, the magazines all talked about Repack with a kind of reverence. The route from that to what I was doing was perfectly clear.
Of course my dad would say that he was riding the same trails on his road bike in the 50s, but it never felt like the same thing to me.

Of all the things we could be chatting about with Charlie Kelly and people just prefer to throw mud! Don’t get it.

Is it not true? Like I say, whatever else you believe or don’t believe, you can trace your mountain bike to the stumpjumper and it came directly from the breezer, this whole industry, and the sport as it is, came from there. That’s kind of a big deal.

Sometimes an idea just has its time, maybe it would have come along by some other means but it wasn’t just the idea of riding offroad- it was the combination of people and events that led to racing, custom frames, then full retail bikes, then mass market, and that was unique. Like Charlie says, lots of people had ridden offroad, but they didn’t leave the mark.

I’m with these quoted chaps and Charlie Kelly. This thread is depressing to me. It kind of sums up the ‘trolliverse’ the internet has become today. The mountain biking I do today started in 1988 when I borrowed my mate’s Hard Rock that he had just bought. A year later I bought a Bear Valley. Over the years my bikes changed but the lineage was there. From Kelly, Fisher, Breeze and Ritchey et al via Sinyard’s Specialized, GT, Yeti. It all leads to the bike and sport I love today.
I remember reading MB Action in 1988 and 1999 and Zapata Espinosa’s editorials. It fired up something in me that’s still burning brightly today.
I have a dream that one day I will partake in a Yeti factory lunchtime ride, do a loop at Moab, ride around Durango, attend the USA Tribemeet and ride Tamalpais. If I bump into Charlie I’ll shake his hand and thank him for what he helped to start.

This video springs to mind (if only):
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk[/video]

Get talking the chap who turns out to be Rik Garner, one of the first guys to build mountain bikes back in the late 70s.

Sounds like a great trip.

Just out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you? Obviously SOMEBODY did it first, and I have the photos and the results of my efforts. It’s only been 38 years since I put on my first race, and I would think any competing claims would have surfaced by now.

I guess the issue I have is that you’re making out about how it was just a bunch of friends messing around. Not a commercial enterprise where you sought entries from the public and what not.

‘Mates races’ will have been happening for decades, but by their nature, many won’t have been recorded, this doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. That you have records doesn’t mean you were first. I don’t need convincing of anything on that front. If you’re saying that you held the first properly commercial mountain bike race then that seems a legitimate claim, but at odds with some of the other stuff you say about the event.

Like I say, I fully accept that you/Joe/Tom/Gary commercialised mountain biking and made it the industry it is today, and that vast swathes of the sport originated from that, and we owe a huge debt of gratitude for that, but there is definitely some ambiguity around the language used. I’m not convinced anything was “invented”, I think “incepted” would be a better word for what you did.

I’d agree with all the above points Njee, but I think the most contentious term is ‘inventing’, I’d probably use something more appropriate like ‘pioneering*’ or ‘steering’, acknowledging prior activity in the same arena but pushing it to develop into something more concrete and recognisable.

*still seems a bit strong but can’t think of a better word…

I think/hope what we read as overly aggressive may just be a combination of enthusiasm, and being American 😉

I’ve never met Charlie, but have chatted to Gary before and if there’s one thing he had it was boundless enthusiasm for what they’ve been involved in.

but I don’t buy they were first to ever conduct a downhill race (which Charlie has said on this thread several times) purely on the strength that they have results

It’s a good point though, is there any documented evidence of organised off-road downhill racing, in any form, prior to the mid 70’s?

Possibly not, I’m sure there will have been some impromptu and isolated mates races, or even local races somewhere at some point, but none of them evolved into a regular form of competition that I’m aware of.

Epicyclo is probably the most likely to know of any in the UK?

This whole thread is embarrassing. Stw sinks to a new low.

Why? I think in the main it’s an interesting debate, don’t get why it’s embarrassing.

Speaking as someone who’s been long aware of Repack Rider’s presence on this forum and his background.

Also speaking as someone who had been long aware of that and has just read through the whole thing from fresh, it is embarrassing.

Thing is both sides make valid points, but the whole method of getting arguments across is a new low – quite an achievement for this site.

This whole thread is embarrassing. Stw sinks to a new low.

It would be nice if we could take the opportunity to engage in some interesting conversations instead and maybe learn some new things and insight by chatting to someone who was there at the time.

In an attempt to steer this thread in a more positive direction…

Charlie, since you’re here, how about you tell us something we may not know, (that’s not in your book 😉 ) from back then, maybe a story or anecdote about one of your runs down the mountains, or about the guys you rode with?

Would love to know a bit about the comparative skills of your friends, who had the edge on corners? straight line speed? ability to rescue a mistake, something like that, something about the riders and the experience!

If you’ve been on STW for any length of time I’m sure you can find something far lower than this.