I went with a strong mind to part with my hard earned (in the not too distant future) on at least one of the(well respected) builders at the show. I also fell in love with a particular frame on display which happened to be a) very expensive b) built locally to me. But having met the builders I was instantly taken with how little time they had for me, and was practically given the brush off.
So despite properly admiring their skills and end product, I can’t say I’m keen to pay up any longer.

On the other hand, I had a great chat with one perhaps lesser known (?) builder in particular whom was keen to take on my ideas and couldn’t help me enough. Despite his style not necessarily being my first choice, I could certainly work with him on a full custom frame. In this case I’m happy to name his company : http://www.sturdycycles.co.uk

Anyone else have similar findings?

my ideas

That’s probably why. Nightmare customer alert.

They’re the pro builders after all; just tell them you inside leg measurement and height and they should be able to build you a great bike.

I hardly inundated them. I just have an idea of what I want the bike to do in terms of on/off road ability, plus the fact that I don’t have much of an idea of angles.. ie, happy to be advised.

In fact I pretty much rocked up and said ‘I love your bikes, I want to spend my money, I have short legs and a long torso’

In fact it was Tom Sturdy who went into detail about tube selection based on weight/ride characteristics. I just listened for a good while, was interesting to be schooled.

Even so, if you expect someone to hand over best part of £4K for a ruddy steel frame – you’d better believe I want them to listen to my preferences.

🙂 should have given you a wink with that last post 😉

Surely Shand/Richards/Cooper should be the sort of people you’re asking? Is bespoked not a roadies bike show?

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

And not quite, there were a few nice non-roadie bikes on show. One I didn’t like quite so much, but he had cool t-shirts so I bought one.
Best feature on show, integrated whisky down tube flask, with tap at bottom of down tube. Awesome.

Well, your profile says you’re in Surrey so that should help narrow down the accused.
Shand – Scotland
Richards – Yorkshire
Cooper – ??

£4K for a steel frame 😯

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

All forum goers though, so it’s to be expected….lacking social skills.

Should have taken your ipad and just sent them emails whilst you were there.

Cooper – ??

He’s Scotch aswell int he?

I’d want adamantium for £4k

I’m not far from that Sturdy place, I’ve heard a few people say he makes very nice stuff. If I remember correctly,welshfarmer ( think it was him ) has a mate who just had one built or is having one built, and was impressed with it.

I’d want adamantium for £4k

I’d want a hot hatch for £4k

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

If it was me (or someone on our stand) let me know. Either by email or happy to chat on here. The show was a little awkward for me at times but happy to try and rectify anything (in public if need be).

I’m just making this assumption as I don’t think either of the other 2 mentioned were at the show?

Didn’t try and sell anyone a £4k frame though!

Pulls up chair

Offers Popcorn
Encourages david and Scotsroute to chime in

Ponders as to whether to get the bombers or the pitchfork

Only ever had good experiences at Bespoked over the last few years, had a couple of really good chats this year too.

However… The show environment probably is quite difficult for a lot of builders, there’s so many people there wanting to poke and prod and chat, some genuine, some less so, limited time and not really the best time for an in depth consultation.

Hope you find what you’re looking for though, it’s as much about the relationship and interaction with the builder as it is the bike, after all they can all produce a top quality frame but it’s the relationship that will make sure you get exactly the right thing in the end… or not 😉

Slimjim, listen to your gut, if you feel that someone is an utter cockwomble then they probably are. No need to second guess yourself, there are plenty of other great builders around – find someone that you like and trust.

4k is a lot of money, spend it on something that will make you happy. Not someone elses idea of what will make you happy.

after all they can all produce a top quality frame

Well, you say that, but I once read a story about a man who couldn’t braze his frames without wonky seat tubes. Hopefully that’s all sorted now though.

Tom_W1987 – Member
Slimjim, listen to your gut, if you feel that someone is an utter cockwomble then they probably are. No need to second guess yourself, there are plenty of other great builders around – find someone that you like and trust.

4k is a lot of money, spend it on something that will make you happy. Not someone elses idea of what will make you happy.

Yeh, but I mean if I was gonna spend hot hatch money on a frame, I’d want an experienced frame builder to build it. And that’s not necessarily someone who wanted to pour me a cup of coffee and chat about the length of my torso for half an hour.

Starling guy was very nice very chatty very engaging. And his frame looked fab imo

But having met the builders I was instantly taken with how little time they had for me, and was practically given the brush off.

How very dare they.
What is the world coming to?

Still,I am sure they were all secretly impressed by those anal respiration and pee in the shower stories.

http://www.starlingcycles.com/frames/

Yeh, but I mean if I was gonna spend hot hatch money on a frame, I’d want an experienced frame builder to build it. And that’s not necessarily someone who wanted to pour me a cup of coffee and chat about the length of my torso for half an hour.

Then keep looking. Lots of great custom builders on this planet, I’d be half tempted to spend a grand of that on a holiday abroad to have a chat with someone.

You have to wonder if by the end of one of the shows this is all the builder can see coming…

Mike, 5 years ago, if I’d come up to a custom builder…even Nicolai I reckon…and asked…can I have a 63 degree head angle trail bike with a 1300mm wheelbase and a 500mm reach….they’d have told me to **** off as they wouldn’t want their name associated with such a monstrosity.

Sometimes the customer does know what they want, you should always keep an open mind, assume that they do and not treat them like complete morons – until you’ve spoken to them for a bit longer at least.

Engineers often know **** all about what riders actually want, witness the hilarious antics of various motogp teams trying to tell riders what they want.

I’d want a hot hatch for £4k

I bought a 3L sports car for less, do I win a prize? 😛

Only ever had good experiences at Bespoked over the last few years, had a couple of really good chats this year too.

However… The show environment probably is quite difficult for a lot of builders, there’s so many people there wanting to poke and prod and chat, some genuine, some less so, limited time and not really the best time for an in depth consultation.

Didn’t go this year, but have been the last few years. In my experience, more so than bike shop owners, there’s no such thing as frame builder that isn’t always busy. Of course this doesn’t excuse ignorant behaviour, but good frame builders usually have a waiting list as long as their arm (bad ones usually have a day job) and aren’t under pressure to make a good impression on any potential customer per se. Just like Tattoo artists, They let their handiwork do the talking, and the whole point of Bespoked is it’s a bit of an industry competition for all the frame builders to show just how good they are right now.

Personally, when it comes to mountain bikes, I’d question what a £4K frame can do that a decent £500 steel frame doesn’t, and certainly question its validity against far superior full suspension bikes. On the road however, the likes of Legend, Sarto, Pegoretti et al really earn their crust ekeing out every last nuance of ride quality and individuality out of their frames when compared to the efficient, yet largely soulless, mass made mainstream carbon bikes.

Sometimes the customer does know what they want, you should always keep an open mind, assume that they do and not treat them like complete morons – until you’ve spoken to them for a bit longer at least.

True and not what I was saying at all, at any trade show you will be dealing with human beings. Real people who are mostly not proper sales people etc.
In any of these things (speaking from the other side of the table in a niche industry) you will get a bunch of tyre kickers, those that would buy yours if only it was [insert current fashion here] more or less or purple. Then there are the ones who are just trying to get pricing going between a few or drive down the guy they want. Then there are the ones who are 100% ready to commit and have the cash waiting and know exactly what they want but never show again.

Out of that you will/might get some customers you want to work with – in a business like that you probably don’t want to work with all the people who want to work with you. I’d certainly be trying to check their forum postings before taking some of them on 😉

The long and the short is being on the selling side of the table is tough, pressured, difficulty and exhausting which is where the Homer Simpson comes from, at some points they all look like that when you just need a break. It means not everyone gets the time they think they deserve, having been both sides I’d probably use shows as an excuse to wander, look and think, maybe have a quick chat but follow up properly when the builder has time if you are actually serious about it.

I bought a 3L sports car for less, do I win a prize?

Prize? You must be joking, I’ve had bigger tubs of ice cream 🙂

I’ve only ever dealt with one custom builder and that was Robin Mather. He had orders coming out of his ears, but answered all my emails same day and was both pleasant to deal with and on time.

On the road however, the likes of Legend, Sarto, Pegoretti et al really earn their crust ekeing out every last nuance of ride quality and individuality out of their frames when compared to the efficient, yet largely soulless, mass made mainstream carbon bikes.

Crikey, my bullshit-o-meter just exploded!

As a manufacturer, my employer hasn’t attended a trade fair in 49 years and we are still growing so fast that we are having to invest heavily to keep up with demand. Our experience of trade fairs is that they attract tyre-kickers or small customers who waste your time for very little business. Our EU Sales department has just attended their first ever trade fair in Paris and as far as I know, all they got was more tyre-kickers. In Export, we are supposed to know the big consumers in our own markets.

Just because someone can make a bike frame does not mean they can be good with potential customers.

Not many people can be an artist/engineer/salesman/bikerider all in one.

globalti – every customer of a bespoke frame builder is a ‘small customer’, surely?

People buy bike frames as much on emotion (or because they like the colour) as anything else. Particularly with a bespoke frame – rock up with a list of requirements and there’s 10 or 15 UK builders who’ll happy get something soldered together and apply a shiney paint job.

So frame builders have to sell their vision, their product via things like trade shows and nice photo’s in magazines. And, yes, deal with tyre kickers at shows as they try and separate the wheat fromt he chaff – and in the OP’s case sometimes fail?

It’s not ‘wrong’, it’s just a different business model to yours.

As a manufacturer, my employer hasn’t attended a trade fair in 49 years and we are still growing so fast that we are having to invest heavily to keep up with demand. Our experience of trade fairs is that they attract tyre-kickers or small customers who waste your time for very little business. Our EU Sales department has just attended their first ever trade fair in Paris and as far as I know, all they got was more tyre-kickers. In Export, we are supposed to know the big consumers in our own markets.

As a reasonably large uk manufacturer, my employer attends a lot of trade fairs. Yes you get tyre kickers and yes you are fed up of talking to anyone by the end of day three but I’ve only been to a handful of shows over the last ten years of doing this that I came away from thinking it was a total waste of time and money.

Godsdammit Njee…..you beat me to it 👿
Though I’ll add

I’d question what a £4K frame can do that a decent £500 steel frame doesn’t, and certainly question its validity against far superior full suspension bikes

in the totally missed the point category 🙄
If only Weevil did a steel frame you could fawn over 😉

good responses.
Nay, I did manage a brief chat with Mr Shand but his stand was swamped for obvious reason so didn’t expect to be able to chew the grass for long – the Shand collection was mighty nice. Plus 4K would get an awesome full build with Shand (for which I may well be in touch Steven!)

Fasthaggis – my daft forum history has little to do with my cycling preferences. And hopefully my ability to engage in half decent conversation isn’t affected either. Then again..

I reckon there’ll be a bit of self selection here and quite a few people who choose to spend half their lives alone in a workshop talking to a welder, might not necessarily thrive in a trade hall full of people tapping on the glass. Just a thought… We don’t do trade shows, exactly, but part of my job is similiar- go to an event, and basically go “come at me bro” to 500 school kids and parents. It’s not for everyone.

Yeah that’s fair enough.
I think my main gripe was one guy (4K guy) pretty much dropped me mid sentence to continue a chat with another fella that he must’ve started earlier in the day. I stood there like a lemon for a minute or so before realising I was no longer on the radar.
But yeah, it must be really hard to manage everyone’s expectations in that kind of environment.

I reckon there’ll be a bit of self selection here and quite a few people who choose to spend half their lives alone in a workshop talking to a welder, might not necessarily thrive in a trade hall full of people tapping on the glass.

Always been my assumption too. I meet quite a few lone trader designer makers in my day job. Some lovable and the consummate professional, some plain eccentric and a walking talking ball of chaos. I’ve heard ‘I didn’t like working for someone or in a large organisation’ so many times and often wondered if it was actually that way around.

I guess, if you were fairly set on buying from that guy, maybe some emails and see if you do get the requisite attention when you’re definitely not a tyre-kicker.

But if you’re looking to buy from someone who made a good first impression in person and builds nice stuff, then the first guy has done himself out of a sale.

No point taking it personally or holding a grudge either way. Just decide whether you care, and proceed accordingly.

🙂

Yeah, I think you’ve nailed it