fred……….or is it because we are good law abiding people who know right from wrong?
or is it because we dont jump on every bandwagon looking for something to support?

Is there an actual breakdown of how the reforms compare with the rest of europe amd how it will actually effect future students?

university education has become devalued and the system needs to change. I can think of plenty who go because they cant think of anything better to do or want to get trashed for a year or 2 before dropping out.

The unis themselves are huge inefficient organisations and also need to be sorted out, maybe this will happen if the paying customers started to protest on the campus.

“ivantate – Member

Attack a member of the royal family and face the consequences. That is a big line to cross, as if fighting riot police wasnt.”

Is it? They’re just people. Attack a cop, attack a protestor, attack a royal, attack a random person in the street, all the same thing.

or is it because we are good law abiding people who know right from wrong?

😆

Ha ha! Very good Ton; very good!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/10/schoolboy-quizzed-cameron-office-picket?CMP=twt_gu

They’re just people.

some people are more equal than others though aren’t they?

smithers release the hounds, so whos going to pay for the damage thats been caused by the students , i would like to see the students union get the bill.

What, the NUS who led a peaceful protest and spoke out against the violence? Yeah, seems reasonable 😆

Elfinsafety – Member

Thing I don’t get is how people like Ton are moaning about the protesters?

Because people like Ton, Woppit etc live in little bubbles from which they seldom venture outside

As opposed to “Fred/Elfin” who spends his time desperately running about trying to find people who will let him join in, because he’s never found love and is basically, very lonely.

Anyway, a mouthy young gobshite poking at a helpless pensioner trapped in car with a stick, because he can’t be bothered to get off his arse and sort his own life out without being fed taxpayer’s money deserves a good public spanking. What a scrote.

Is there an actual breakdown of how the reforms compare with the rest of europe amd how it will actually effect future students?

Why don’t you have a look rather than posing a rhetorical question as a rather lazy way of trying to make a point

university education has become devalued and the system needs to change. I can think of plenty who go because they cant think of anything better to do or want to get trashed for a year or 2 before dropping out.

A university education has become more accessible, but actually mostly because a lot of places that used to be called polytechnics became universities. Big deal. There are some silly courses out there, let’s say “Theatrical hairdressing and makeup” for example, but these are the exception. Making higher education the preserve of the rich or those who want to be when they graduate is not a good change to make. People who just want to get trashed for a year or two are very much the minority, but hey, there will always be people at the extreme ends of the spectrum. There are also students who work ridiculously hard, I was one.

The unis themselves are huge inefficient organisations and also need to be sorted out, maybe this will happen if the paying customers started to protest on the campus.

Perhaps they are inefficient, but restricting access to education to the privileged or the foolhardy is not related to this ambition at all. Students protesting about the inefficiency of their universities, now there is an advanced concept, perhaps a step of abstraction too far.

I think if my child was on a protest and got attacked by the police, even for doing something illegal, say damaging property, I would given my kid an almighty bo****ing and then be with them on the next protest, protesting about the treatment of my child.

The punishment of the law in the UK does not include getting beaten up for exercising your right to protest. It comprises prosecution and then fine or imprisonment if found guilty of a criminal offence, and quite rightly so, of course. But you can’t have one law for the cops and another law for the protesters – cops get to beat people up and as we have seen – Tomlinson – kill people, with little or no comeback. I predict it will not end there and that is a tragedy for the individuals involved and for democracy.

Anyway, a mouthy young gobshite poking at a helpless pensioner trapped in car with a stick, because he can’t be bothered to get off his arse and sort his own life out without being fed taxpayer’s money deserves a good public spanking. What a scrote.

Helpless except for the armed guards all round them. Pensioner in all ways except for the fact that they are some of the wealthiest people in the UK, so not exactly ignored, lonely and dying of cold in an unheated garret in Gateshead, say. Not really deserving of classic The Sun pensioner-related sympathy I’m afraid. Can’t be bothered to get of his arse and sort his own life out, except for the fact that he got off his a*se, went on a demo and got mad at the display of over-privilege being paraded infront of him. Stupid idea if he behaved threateningly, but stupidity is not unknown among people, is it?

Have you ever cared about anything in your life enough to get of your a*se and demonstrate? Have you got the b**lls to face up to a riot policeman in full brutality-inflicting kit? Helmet, shield, big stick, 6′ high horse. Because, let me tell you, it’s terrifying. Get upset about something that matters to you or your kids, go and do it, protest publicly, just once, facing up to the riot cops, then come back and get involved in a debate on protest and policing. Until then you are not qualified to comment.

Am I the only one that thinks it’s a bit odd that C&C’s car ended up in that position in the first place? Let’s have some Wiki-Leaks on that decision making process please.

Elfinsafety – Member

Thing I don’t get is how people like Ton are moaning about the protesters?

Because people like Ton, Woppit etc live in little bubbles from which they seldom venture outside

That seems quite offensive and disproportionate to me. Just because they don’t agree with your world view? I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past but served (my only) ban, which you jumped all over.
Of course freds now going to search my posts and quote something completely out of context.
Who were you accusing of being nasty the other day? (just before another ban)

It seems odd that people don’t get banned from this forum for expressing offensive views e.g. “it might not be a bad thing if a protester got shot” (paraphrasing). That’s a pretty disgusting suggestion to make is it not? Summary execution for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, yup, good idea.

It seems odd that people don’t get banned from this forum for expressing offensive views

Freedom of speech, freedom of expression perhaps?
Are you the thought police?

You misunderstand me. I was highlighting the contrast between people being able to state views that other people find very offensive, but not being able to criticise other people or their attitudes. I think freedom of expression works both ways no? I don’t actually think people should get banned from here for expressing very offensive views either. Much as I dislike it I can choose not to read it.

Edit: Maybe there is a code of conduct that I haven’t read which says it’s ok to express extreme right wing views but not to call someone a Nazi. I dunno. Free speech, it’s a funny thing.

That seems quite offensive and disproportionate to me. Just because they don’t agree with your world view?

I think it’s pretty obvious, from their posts, that they have a pretty blinkered and narrow-minded view of the World. Feel free to comment from behind the safety of a keyboard, but show very little understanding of things beyond the sensationalist media presentation of events. Their comments are designed to provoke, that’s clear, but carry very little in the way of sensible considered arguments, just a load of prejudiced rhetoric really.

Were Ton and Woppit anywhere near Westminster on Thursday evening? I’d be happy to hear their informed views of the events, from the perspective of someone who was actually there, you know, at the place in question, like…

Have you ever cared about anything in your life enough to get of your a*se and demonstrate? Have you got the b**lls to face up to a riot policeman in full brutality-inflicting kit? Helmet, shield, big stick, 6′ high horse. Because, let me tell you, it’s terrifying. Get upset about something that matters to you or your kids, go and do it, protest publicly, just once, facing up to the riot cops, then come back and get involved in a debate on protest and policing. Until then you are not qualified to comment.

Well I have. But then, I don’t live in a bubble…

Oh yeah; Wunundred! 😀

As opposed to “Fred/Elfin” who spends his time desperately running about trying to find people who will let him join in, because he’s never found love and is basically, very lonely.

It’s true. I am so, so ronery….

Trailertrash

Have you ever cared about anything in your life enough to get of your a*se and demonstrate? Have you got the b**lls to face up to a riot policeman in full brutality-inflicting kit? Helmet, shield, big stick, 6′ high horse. Because, let me tell you, it’s terrifying. Get upset about something that matters to you or your kids, go and do it, protest publicly, just once, facing up to the riot cops, then come back and get involved in a debate on protest and policing. Until then you are not qualified to comment.

And what about the police facing a barrage of bricks, concrete, bottles and the odd fire extinguisher, do you think some of those coppers found that quite terrifying? Or should we just say that until you have faced a riot you’re not qualified to comment either? Just a thought.

a helpless pensioner

😀 You do come out with it ……… don’t you Woppit ? !

“Helpless” LOL ! And how much is the pension she draws……do you know ?

And I also liked :

“Fred/Elfin” who spends his time desperately running about trying to find people who will let him join in, because he’s never found love and is basically, very lonely.

Because of course you give a completely different impression !

It’s about tolerance, which is sadly lacking by many one here.
We should respect everyones right to have an opinion even if it is at odds with our own. Debate is healthy, vitriol is not.
I learnt a lot from my ban, see!

In my experience, and this seemed very much to be the case on Thursday night too, trouble only really kicks off following heavy-handed police tactics. I’ve been at loads of demos that have been perfectly peaceful, then suddenly the police decide to start pushing the crowd back, or something, come wading in with truncheons and shields, which as trailertrash says, is really terrifying. Try to imagine yourself in that situation; you’ll instinctively want to defend yourself. Then, you’ll be really angry that the police have acted in a violent (and often illegal) manner towards yourself and others. You’ll naturally want to fight back.

The tactic of kettling is to deliberately wind people up, so that they react, and the police can wade in and batter people. Trust me; the police are well up for a fight. They want the crowd to turn violent. Justifies their own brutality.

To see the police as some sort of otherwise benign force that only acts through absolutely necessity is incredibly naive and blinkered. They are there as an intimidating and oppressive force. They want to discourage future demonstrations, and to make people fear them. Not going to work. All they’ve done is wound people up even more.

We should respect everyones right to have an opinion even if it is at odds with our own.

Of course. We also have the right to challenge views which display ignorance and prejudice.

And what about the police facing a barrage of bricks, concrete, bottles and the odd fire extinguisher, do you think some of those coppers found that quite terrifying? Or should we just say that until you have faced a riot you’re not qualified to comment either? Just a thought.

I am sure they were scared too. What’s your point? That it’s ok to beat people up if you are scared?

Don’t get me wrong, I think the police in general do a great job in serving the public (not talking about policing demos for a minute) and I personally have them to thank for a few things they have helped me out with in my life, and I have made sure I thanked them for it. But I think there is an attitude problem, particularly in the Met, with regard to violence against protesters and the facts bear this out.

Just because I have never been a policeman does not make me unqualified to comment on what happens at demos, as I have been to quite a few. However, my point was to question wether Woppit had ever been on one at all, and if not then he really isn’t qualified to comment on what goes on at one as the media portrayal, which can be his only source of info, is generally very sanitised. I know this first hand. However he can comment of course – free speech – it just doesn’t carry much weight. I support his right to comment, but I find I don’t think much of the comments when they come. Hope this clears that up.

I think it’s pretty obvious, from their posts, that they have a pretty blinkered and narrow-minded view of the World. Feel free to comment from behind the safety of a keyboard, but show very little understanding of things beyond the sensationalist media presentation of events. Their comments are designed to provoke, that’s clear, but carry very little in the way of sensible considered arguments, just a load of prejudiced rhetoric really.

Hang on, who said this? Elfinsafety?

Hahahahhahahahahh 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Elfin, the only difference between you and them is that your prejuduced rhetoric is entirely from your own left wing London centric bubble, and completely ignores the fact that someone who didn’t grow up in your pathetic “fight the power” inner city **** circle might have completely different views from you that are not only based upon their own life experiences but are equally valid to your own!

but are equally valid to your own!

They’re not though are they? They’re just based on what they saw on telly, coupled with their own prejudices. I’m talking from the perspective of someone who actually witnessed events first hand. Slight difference, I think…

Why should my tax pay for a millionaires son to go to university, I doubt my kids will be able to afford to? what’s fair about that?

Here’s thing, and it’s quite fundamental to political differences apparent on this thread, I think. Tax is not about you and yours, and what you do or don’t get. Tax is about ensuring we have a society that works. All the institutions of civil society rest on it, including those gentlemen in blue causing bleeding to the brain in Parliament Square.

In the context of increased uni fees, one argument is that the increased exclusivity of higher education is unfair to those who are deterred from it.

Another argument, which you may accept even if you don’t accept the first one, is that UK plc needs a well and widely educated population. Again, this is nothing to do with you and yours. Your tax isn’t paying for a millionaire’s son to go to university, it’s paying for the future success of UK in the global market.

So there.

Elfin, the only difference between you and them is that your prejuduced rhetoric is entirely from your own left wing London centric bubble, and completely ignores the fact that someone who didn’t grow up in your pathetic “fight the power” inner city **** circle might have completely different views from you that are

this breaks forum rules.

However Elfin you fail to consider the point of view of the police, since your own prejudice and tunnel vision means you yourself are unable to take a disconnected view of the situation.

What I fail to see you commenting on or accepting above in any way is the fact that a significant minority of the people on the ground at the protest went specifically armed and looking for trouble! There is *no* reasonable excuse for going to a peaceful protest carrying paint, snooker balls, marine flares, helmets or balaclavas – until you are able to accept that fact and castigate the people who did so, then all the “you weren’t there maan” in the world is simply irrelevant.

The police have a absolute duty to maintain public order and the queens peace, as soon as people broke through barricades into parliament square and away from the agreed protest route, they were no longer peaceful protesters – the Kettle was not enforced till 15.30 hours – violence broke out *before* the containment – whether you were there or not, these are all valid points, and blaming the police is merely sidestepping the question!

Trailertrash; don’t worry about Z-11. It don’t bother me. It does however amuse me that he’s sitting there all wound up, desperately trying to come up with something witty and suitably condescending.

There is *no* reasonable excuse for going to a peaceful protest with crash helmets, truncheons, horses, etc.. 😛

Also, the moderators have a absolute duty to maintain forum order and the STW peace, as soon as people broke through boundaries of decent language into threads and away from the agreed rules, they were no longer peaceful posters – the Ban was not enforced till 15.30 hours – swearing broke out *before* the exclusion – whether you were there or not, these are all valid points, and blaming the moderators is merely sidestepping the question! 😛 😆

The Royal Car was way off the official route of the march. I can’t believe some people have the temerity to suggest the Royal car shouldn’t have been passing through the streets of our capital city.

A significant minority of people in London that day had gone tooled up with snooker balls, bricks, paint etc with no intention to protest in a lawful way. They were basically a bunch of thugs and are fair game for the police in my view.

In what way is attacking a Royal car, vandalising government buildings, disrespecting the war dead at Cenotaph or Churchill memorial a way of protesting anything?

How many of the ‘rent-a-mob’ were even students or potential students? Half of them probably go from one protest to another to kick off for fun whether it’s anti-hunting, Iraq war, bypass building etc etc

@Z-11

I was just sat here thinking that if Alfie dies I will go to London to protest, but that I had better take my snowboarding helmet to protect my own skull from having the queen’s peace imposed on me too hard. I might take some paint to make placards too. Flares are actually quite good fun, if you have never set one off you wouldn’t know but it’s quite exciting, it happens at football matches from time to time I believe. Might take my balaclava in case it’s cold, or in case the police film me and decided, in a case of mistaken identity, that I have exercised my right to not have the cr*p beaten out of me a little to vigorously and come a hunting ‘ole TT. Wouldn’t need any snooker balls though, except for a bit of juggling to entertain the crowds….(tenuous I admit, that one)

So you see, there are in fact excuses for taking many of those things to a peaceful protest after all.

I have two mates who were there on Thursday and I was listening to one talking about it last night. He said that it was OK until the police started marching in from all sides, effectively trying to crush the protesters into a tiny space. Despite having their hands in the air to show that they were non-violent they still got hit with batons for not moving back as the police marched into them but they had nowhere to go…

At one point he was in a group of about 40, all with their hands up with a line of met police in front and riot police behind, both lines pushing in on them shouting at them to move back and smacking them when they didn’t. They couldn’t move back because at the same the other line of police were telling them the same thing! Eventually they realised what was happening and just let them all go, at that point my mates left the protest (partially because they were desperate for the toilet but had nowhere to go).

He also said that he thought that the met police were fine and that it was the riot police who actually were the main issue. His opinion is that the met are well trained and do it all the time whereas a number of riot police are volunteers who aren’t trained and experienced enough in the situation (I have no idea about this bit but that’s his point of view).

What I fail to see you commenting on or accepting above in any way is the fact that a significant minority of the people on the ground at the protest went specifically armed and looking for trouble! There is *no* reasonable excuse for going to a peaceful protest carrying paint, snooker balls, marine flares, helmets or balaclavas –

Where did I fail to ‘accept’ that there were a tiny (yet obviously still significant) minority of thugs out simply to cause trouble? Where? I never denied this fact at all.

Breaking through barricades to Parliament Square was perfectly valid in the context of Democracy. This enabled the voices of those protesting to be heard by those inside Parliament, voting on things that affect the future of the people they are supposed to represent. Imposing a ban on demonstrations outside Parliament itself is undemocratic. The right of people to demonstrate where they want trumps whatever the police think. Had the police allowed the demonstrators to progress unhindered to PS, and then to allow people to come and go as they wanted, much of the trouble would have been averted. The police would have had better ability to spot the troublemakers and make appropriate arrests; the vast majority of people din’t want any violence. In fact, many people were shouting at the troublemakers to stop being idiots. But facts like that aren’t as exciting for telly pictures.

The police aren’t to blame for the actions of a minority of thugs amongst the otherwise peaceful demonstrators. They are to blame, however, for provoking an already volatile situation, for using violent and unnecessary tactics, and holding people without valid reason, against their will.

And, backatcha:

What I fail to see you commenting on or accepting above in any way is the fact that a significant minority of the police on the ground at the protest went specifically hyped up and looking for trouble!

😉

Play the game son, play the game….

Breaking through barricades to Parliament Square was perfectly valid in the context of Democracy. This enabled the voices of those protesting to be heard by those inside Parliament,

However democratic process through parliament gave the police the authority to choose the route of the protest, so breaching that law is anti-democratic

OK, lets look forward:

a fair number of these protesters arrived *armed and ready* for trouble, balaclava’s, tins of paint, helmets, “placards” made like riot shields and battering rams

If the police had chosen to proactively police and search all the entry points before the protest crowd developed – ie tube stations, coach parks etc, and arrest anyone equipped accordingly, under the perfectly lawful “to prevent a breach of the peace” then they could have nipped this in the bud, and I wouldn’t see that their actions as unreasonable, as the only people detained would be those going *equipped* to cause trouble.

Anyone carrying items which are clearly destined to be used to cause unrest should have been detained and prevented from joining the protest, then prosecuted accordingly

This type of pre-emtive action has worked well at football matches for years now so no real reason it could not be used to uphold the right of peaceful protest

Elfin – would you support this?

In what way is attacking a Royal car, vandalising government buildings, disrespecting the war dead at Cenotaph or Churchill memorial a way of protesting anything?

Understandable reaction, and yes pointless vandalism is pretty stupid, but on consideration…

Vandalising government buildings is a pretty direct statement of dissatisfaction no? I wouldn’t do it myself but…

I don’t imagine the war dead really give a monkeys. They are dead, and they fought for, variously, the end of a police state, free healthcare, education for all, land fit for heroes etc etc. I would like to think they might have a range of views surprisingly unrelated to wether or not some guy climbs on a certain bit of stonework to get a better view of the goings on one day in London. It was dumb, but hey, people do dumb things. Do you really thing this is the first time someone has thoughtlessly climbed/peed on/been sick/nicked wreaths from a war memorial. Disturbing image I know, of him dangling off the flag and that, but then that’s what press photography is about no?

I think it needs to be remembered that there has been a betrayal here. The government has betrayed the people. Who started this?

It appears though that peaceful protests do little, especially if you can only protest where those you are protesting against allow you to go.

Even our access to the hills and mountains of this country were hard fought for in violent protests. The Kinder Trespass is reported as fairly twee nowadays but newspaper reports of the time say different calling it a ‘free fight’ between the two sides.