There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it’s tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip.

Laterally stiff, yet vertically compliant? Er, no. Spoke tension makes just as much difference to radial stiffness as it does to lateral stiffness. How on earth could it be otherwise – does the spoke know which direction the force is coming from?

Radialy the stiffness is given by the spokes in tension at the top of the wheel. You can’t crush a wheel radialy, that’s why arches are arch shaped! So A very siff rim lets you get huge side to side stiffness, but low enough spoke tension to allow it to deflect radialy.

Bit like low spoke count road wheels, they feel nice and comfortable, but are almost/just as stiff axialy as having a full 32/36 spokes.

Oh this thread just gets better and better. Firstly the hub doesn’t hang on the spokes at the top of the wheel. Secondly a “stiff” rim is far stiffer vertically than laterally (relative to a less stiff rim) – at least that’s the case for the majority of stiff rims, and certainly for those used in low spoke count road wheels. Hence one which is as laterally stiff as a conventional wheel will be a lot stiffer radially. I did already mention that low spoke tension has no effect on radial stiffness didn’t I? In any case, a road wheel is far, far stiffer radially than a tyre, so decreasing the stiffness in that direction has no noticeable effect (apart from placebo).

I could probably have just pointed out that you contradict yourself by saying that you can’t crush a wheel radially.

Er hang on, what planet are you on? Spending excessive amounts of money on bits and pieces is part of the hobby matey

Waddya mean ‘part of the hobby’ – for me mountain biking is all about the shopping to the point where I no longer even build the parts up into a rideable form, it’s enough for me just to know that I’m awesome enough to own a set of £750 rims.

Similarly, I’ve served my time, paid my dues and am entitled to read Privateer Magazine. Which probably explains why it’s not a viable title.

Joking aside though, I think it’s fine for people to spend a lot of dosh on components like these, but really quite foolhardy to actually use them, which is the mistake that Pinkbike clearly made…

😀

Me and my 6ft 2in 15 stone body have dealt my ENVEs some serious abuse and I can assure you they aren’t just for show. They have held up just fine without any Pinkbike style failures. Failure of expensive kit is always going to be newsworthy, but it happens from time to time.

For all of their excellence, the quality of the King hubs, Sapim CX Ray spokes and Strada build quality probably contributes equally if not more than the rims to my positive views of the wheels.

shopping to the point where I no longer even build the parts up into a rideable form

Now that’s shopping at ten tenths!

Furthermore, it’s clearly pronounced “Envy” judging by some of the replies to this thread!

I don’t think you can have anything other than admiration for those few brave riders who are willing to risk that much money on a set of wheels that they’re going to repeatedly bash into rocks.

In modern mountain biking, the stakes are high, and they’ve just upped the ante!

I’m about to build up a set of these:

Carbon DH rim

Big deep 30mm section, 33mm external, 24mm internal, 440g so comparable with any other decent AM rim but should be much stiffer.

Have ridden on ENVE on a mate’s bike and they are definitely very, very good when you are pushing it hard, but price is hard to justify, so I reckon the above are worth a punt at £105 a pop and pretty similar spec……. 🙂

Now that’s shopping at ten tenths!

I only ever shop at eleven tenths, anything else is just half-arsed amateurism and barely worth clicking on ‘Buy’ for. Likewise, I turn my nose up at discounted componentry and seek out the highest online price.

One last thought, if you can afford a set of Enve rims, you can also run to a set of spare wheels so you don’t risk denting your investment.

DCCL 4 1? 😯

Late on but… What 5 year no quibble or questions asked warranty? Enve have no warranty against damage and a crash replacement rim is £450.

may I interrupt here with a pointer towards Derby carbon rims..£400 for a pair delivered to the UK in 40mm (external) 34mminternal on trend 27.5 guise. DH rated and £125 crash replacement (for one rim.

okay, ‘American labour’.. but an extra £550 worth, methinks not.

I’m having nightmares about some recent trips that ended late in the day over west where a rim failing like that would have left me carrying a 34lb bike down a rocky track for about 3 miles before reaching Achnashellach. Jeez, you couldn’t even push the thing!

O.K. the guy continued to ride it but it still failed. If this happens deep into a big ride it kind of spoils the whole thing for me.. just hoping I don’t thwack it.

I liked the idea of trying these rims at some point but I’m going to give them a miss.

Derby rims are made by light bicycle

martinxyz – Member

I’m having nightmares about some recent trips that ended late in the day over west where a rim failing like that would have left me carrying a 34lb bike down a rocky track for about 3 miles before reaching Achnashellach. Jeez, you couldn’t even push the thing!

So you’ll stick to those aluminium rims that never ever break?

bending is different to shattering though…

And I feel I need to say this…

£750 a rim!!!! All the bikes and parts I own aren’t worth much more than that…

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I’m in a good position to judge their merits. No I don’t think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don’t care. I earned it and it’s up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

Where’s all the ire and antagonism?

Where’s all the ire and antagonism?

I was going to ask that. I think there’s a bit of bemusement, but ire seems a bit strong.

geetee1972 – Member
Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I’m in a good position to judge their merits. No I don’t think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don’t care. I earned it and it’s up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

I say good luck to you. I still think they’re extraordinarily expensive relative to their direct competition, and that’s where I’d struggle to justify them.

I trashed my 29er flow ex rear rim and replaced it with an Enve, the difference is unreal.

Firstly the hub doesn’t hang on the spokes at the top of the wheel. Secondly a “stiff” rim is far stiffer vertically than laterally (relative to a less stiff rim) – at least that’s the case for the majority of stiff rims, and certainly for those used in low spoke count road wheels. Hence one which is as laterally stiff as a conventional wheel will be a lot stiffer radially. I did already mention that low spoke tension has no effect on radial stiffness didn’t I? In any case, a road wheel is far, far stiffer radially than a tyre, so decreasing the stiffness in that direction has no noticeable effect (apart from placebo).

I could probably have just pointed out that you contradict yourself by saying that you can’t crush a wheel radially.

I didn’t contradict myself, I said the spokes deform to allow the wheel to deform radialy. And I never said it was stiffer axialy than radialy, I said you could imporve the radial stiffness and reduce it axialy.

And the hub definately ‘hangs’ off the top spokes as you put it, because they’re certainly not working in copression at the bottom are they!

Their logic is that the spokes only need to be tight enough that the unloaded spoke at any point is still in tension. The stiffer the rim, the easier this is to achieve as the rim doesn’t deflect, hence why they were using really low tesnions with the Enve rims. So in theory when Peaty/Minnar/Bryceland lands a big jump/hits a rock the load is taken evenly through the spokes in the top half and the wheel and the bottom half unloads more evenly. Whereas a softer rim would deform localy causing those spokes closes to the impact to come loose, meaning they have to be tighter to start with.

I say good luck to you. I still think they’re extraordinarily expensive relative to their direct competition, and that’s where I’d struggle to justify them.

5 years ago I thought the same of Stans Arch Vs En521. Stans are fragile, crack and cost 3x as much. A few pay rises down the road I’m in a position where I’m really not too botherd if lighter kit breaks in 18 months as I can afford to replace it. Maybe in a couole of years I’ll think the same of the lightbikes rims, and by the time I’m 40, Enve (on the other hand, maybe not).

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I’m in a good position to judge their merits.

Surfmatt, is that you???

geetee1972 – Member

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I’m in a good position to judge their merits. No I don’t think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don’t care. I earned it and it’s up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

well, I would say that this sounds like rather a foolish response. Yes you earn your money and you have the right to spend it how you want. But I think we need to put some common sense into the equation. There is NOTHING that makes these rims worth that price. With probably 15quids worth of material in them you you need to start thinking about whether these products are actually worth the money you are paying. Personally I think you are being downright ripped off and foolish for not realizing it. Of course if you want to believe the marketing BS and think you ride like superman after you bought them then that’s bully for you. But at the end of the day do you not feel stupid for buying something that is really worth bugger all?

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I think it’s more to do with the purchase justification, owners suggesting they totally transform how a bike rides, etc.

When in reality they don’t.

That’s fine though, if people want nice, expensive kit, who cares – but they won’t turn you into a riding god, just because you spunk a fortune on some rims.

Money – sensitive old topic ain’t it!?

£750 for about a tenners worth of material does seem like a bit of a joke though. No amount of development time, manufacturing and order processing could possibly justify that mark-up!

I’m not criticising people for buying them though, if it makes you feel good and you enjoy riding on them then who gives a monkeys what anyone else thinks though eh?

No-one answered my earlier question in this thread though, and it was a genuine one – how is Enve pronounced? Env, Envy, Envay, Enveh? Someone please enlighten a rim ignoramous (oo-er) 😀

Of course if you want to believe the marketing BS and think you ride like superman after you bought them then that’s bully for you

I’ve ridden behind him once, he’s no slouch. Although he was on alloy rims at the time.

Exlusive brands have to have a disproportionately higher price tag to remain so.

In fact there is a known psychological aspect to eye watering pricing – it increases desirability in the eye of the purchaser.

To charge exhorbitant amounts of money for a set of rims isn’t a rip off – it’s marketeering.

We all want them – it’s worked.

Enve rims = £750 each

This thread = priceless

I think the term is ‘aspirational pricing’.

or?

Give or take a couple of hundred quid 😕

And the hub definately ‘hangs’ off the top spokes as you put it, because they’re certainly not working in copression (sic) at the bottom are they!

Oh no they don’t and oh yes they do. It’s all about pre-tensioning meaning that the spokes at the bottom do indeed take some compressional force.

thisisnotaspoon – Member

5 years ago I thought the same of Stans Arch Vs En521. Stans are fragile, crack and cost 3x as much. A few pay rises down the road I’m in a position where I’m really not too botherd if lighter kit breaks in 18 months as I can afford to replace it. Maybe in a couole of years I’ll think the same of the lightbikes rims, and by the time I’m 40, Enve (on the other hand, maybe not).

Stan’s aren’t that fragile – and a Flow rim is/was about 80-100g lighter than the EN521 for the same intended use, plus you were getting a tubeless ready rim too, and the premium was only an extra £30-40 or so.

There’s a considerable difference between that and the Enves – the premium isn’t £30-40 – it’s £700. That’s another world – and with competitor’s full carbon wheelsets selling for around 1100, £750 for one rim is way out there.

And the hub definately ‘hangs’ off the top spokes as you put it, because they’re certainly not working in copression (sic) at the bottom are they!

Oh no they don’t and oh yes they do. It’s all about pre-tensioning meaning that the spokes at the bottom do indeed take some compressional force.

If something is under tension, it has to loose all that tension, then reverse to go into compression. Spokes do not do that. Also, there is nothing holding the nipple in from the tyre side, only tension. If the spoke were attempted to be put under compression, it would simply start moving through the hole in the rim toward the tyre.

“High spoke tension helps to balance the wheel when it is under load. The spoked structure will hardly move at all.
When the wheel is overloaded, the spokes under the most load get support by the neighboring spokes, but only with high spoke tension. Loose spokes can hardly support themselves, let alone their neighbors!
The higher the spoke tension, the more effectively the overload is distributed over several spokes.
If the wheel is momentarily radially overloaded, the uppermost two spokes are subject to extremely high tensile loads. Correct tension does not only allow the close neighbors, but all other spokes in the upper half of the wheel, to act as damping units.”

So a stiff carbon rim may help higher tensions as well as spoke durability – or lower tensions due to less rim flex or higher resistance to radial overload. I’m not a wheelbuilder, I just remember the author of the above describing the way spokes tension and relax as a wheel rotates. I’d recall that as supporting the comment about a hub ‘hanging’ in a way, but a good lacing pattern and tension aims to reduce that so spoke fatigue is reduced. ie tensioned spokes can have a strength in compression but only as part of a near-rigid triangulated structure, that needs support from the opposite side.

You guys still going on about this? wowww…

If something is under tension, it has to loose all that tension, then reverse to go into compression. Spokes do not do that. Also, there is nothing holding the nipple in from the tyre side, only tension. If the spoke were attempted to be put under compression, it would simply start moving through the hole in the rim toward the tyre.

You’re not right there.

But something in tension can still take a compressional force. It just lessens the tension. Read up on pre-tensioning.

Could they not just call them Ridicule rims? I suppose no one aspires to be made fun of though. What about tyres for these bad bois? Cheap tyres on highly expensive rims must be breaking some sort of code. What’s the desired rubber for these?

tinas and nikk – try googling superposition of forces. A wheel is a pre-stressed structure, which allows parts which wouldn’t normally be able to support a compressive force to do so. If you analyse the way a wheel works properly you’ll see that under load the top spokes increase in tension is very little different to the increase in tension of the spokes all the way round the rest of the wheel, apart from those at the bottom which have a large decrease in tension (increase in compression). Hence the hub doesn’t hang on the top spokes.

In what way not right? I don’t build wheels so can’t claim to be but doesn’t that quote say the same thing, that the compression lessens the tension on one side, increases it on the opposite, ideally as little as possible as the wheel rotates?

Edit to add, aracer’s last point, understood it’s not the top pair alone the hub hangs off but a graded variance across the whole wheel.

My comment as not directed at you James. You posted whilst I was replying, hence my edit to include the quote of the post I was replying to.