nwilko
I agree with that and having had only winter tyres fitted to the front of my FWD car for the past couple of days I can confirm that it takes a loooooong time to correct once the back end goes + the ABS kicks in on the first tyre to lose traction making braking only marginally better.
Thankfully I got the rear winters last night which are being fitted now. Without the fronts on however, I seriously doubt I would have even made it to the garage.
this is valid IMO
Two snow tyres will keep you mobile, but if you want to drive any distance at any speed you really are better off with four.
Go to a carpark, drive at moderate speed then hit the brakes on even a slight bend. This will simulate coming round a corner to find a car coming the other way a bit wide. Then go and buy the other two snow tyres 
I have FWD and winter tyres only on the front (still waiting for the other two) and the amount of traction on steeps hills is amazing. Completely missed the 'car park' around Bradford last night by staying high. Yes the snow was deeper but never a moment of hesitation. Even climbed a very steep hill which was 'impassable' according to the radio 
nwilko is right about normal tyres on the rear. You do have to slow right down before making a turn otherwise the backend slides away. A couple of times I had to correct slightly. Going down I just used 1st or 2nd and let the engine do the braking.
Just wish I'd bought some last winter.
can't be arsed to read all of that but here in Scandinavia everyone uses them and they make a really big difference.
Nokian WR G2s on my Subaru. Fantastic, managed to get to work today for the first time since Monday while everyone else near me who has anything less than a Defender is stuck at home.
Would have made it in yesterday as well but ground clearance became the problem instead.
£64 a corner when I got them on Friday, currently £168
Regarding the front wheels only/all four wheels debate this vid seems to show even less control under heavy braking and cornering with winter tyres only on the front than just leaving 4 all season tyres on.
nwilko, I certainly can't compete with your winter driving experience and since I am a firm believe in experience being more important than theory I'm on a hiding-to-nothing with this, BUT your argument for "why" simply does not stack up. You're suggesting a car that starts to spin with non-winter tyres on the rear cannot be recovered OR I have totally missed your point.
Forget the argument about different tyres on front and back for a moment. If the back end goes on a FWD car it is because it has lost traction and counter-steering can correct it because it allows the rear wheels to find traction again. Many of us on here will have had to do that at some stage and not necessarily in winter. If you have 4 winter tyres on and the rear end breaks lose, what do you do? Counter steer. There's simply no difference in what you have to do. A tyre losing traction is a tyre losing traction.
Winter tyres on the front allow you to get around much more easily than no winter tyres on. They don't give you carte-blanche to drive "normally" and I agree you need to be careful on the bends AND know what to do if it all goes wrong. I would rather be moving carefully than just be stuck not going anywhere at all.
as for this...
unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road
Regardless of what I'm driving and with what wheels, if I need to drive like a rally driver to avoid a spin/crash/accident then of course I will. If more people on our UK roads knew some of those skills we wouldn't come to a standstill at the first sign of the white stuff...
...and of course if they put FOUR winter tyres on 
One of my Nokian WR G2s today, just to show all the extra sipes in the tread blocks, and the impression left in the snow. I know, I'm a geek!
nwilko, I certainly can't compete with your winter driving experience and since I am a firm believe in experience being more important than theory I'm on a hiding-to-nothing with this, BUT your argument for "why" simply does not stack up. You're suggesting a car that starts to spin with non-winter tyres on the rear cannot be recovered OR I have totally missed your point.
Forget the argument about different tyres on front and back for a moment. If the back end goes on a FWD car it is because it has lost traction and counter-steering can correct it because it allows the rear wheels to find traction again. Many of us on here will have had to do that at some stage and not necessarily in winter. If you have 4 winter tyres on and the rear end breaks lose, what do you do? Counter steer. There's simply no difference in what you have to do. A tyre losing traction is a tyre losing traction.
Winter tyres on the front allow you to get around much more easily than no winter tyres on. They don't give you carte-blanche to drive "normally" and I agree you need to be careful on the bends AND know what to do if it all goes wrong. I would rather be moving carefully than just be stuck not going anywhere at all.
as for this...
unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road
Regardless of what I'm driving and with what wheels, if I need to drive like a rally driver to avoid a spin/crash/accident then of course I will. If more people on our UK roads knew some of those skills we wouldn't come to a standstill at the first sign of the white stuff...
...and of course if they put FOUR winter tyres on
final comment,
if youve got winters on the front and normal on the rear the car has grip/traction biased towards the front, if the snow & ice can only offer a fixed amount of friction you will always reach the point where the rears loose traction before the front, how can you reverse this relationship once the rears are sliding, more braking will increase the spin, more throttle will potentially straighten the car and increase speed which means you now cant get round the corner that caused you to loose the back in the 1st place.
Counter steering / steering where you wish to go is valid for recoving from a skid but is more suited to RWD.
The reason youve lost the rear on that corner was that 2weeks ago you fitted winters on the front with oodles of traction that got you moving too fast for the amount of grip your rears can generate, kaboom hello ditch/tree....
FWD with winters only on front is similar to lift off oversteer in a 911, a knife-edge..
Re sheet ice the only thing that works is studded tyres that can bite, but these are destroyed on dry tarmac and destroy the road surface + creating dust/health issues.
re second hand winters if the sipes (multiple cracks if you like) on each tread block are not present (their not full depth of each tread block) the winter tyre has massively reduced grip than compared to its new state, (you may be wasting your money)..
Why do you only put snowchains on the front on FWD vehicle then?
I was working on Saturday last and for the first time ever I nearly didn't make it. Found some snow tyres and got two fitted on Saturday afternoon and have been amazed at the difference. If I'd put them on in advance I might have wondered if they were that much better but having driven in to get them fitted with v little traction and control and driven back as if the road was normal I couldn't believe it. They cost £105 each (VW Passat estate, 205/55 I think) but for me to get to work that's worth it many times over. Original tyres can be refitted for £9 each.
Having read all that tho' ^^^^ I might have to get some more for the back
I find the compound of winter tyres to be good.Its not just the tread depth or pattern that does all the work. My worn down ones still performed with next to nothing left on them and it looks like Househusbands video clip above proves this as they are testing on an ice rink.It doesnt get much slippery than that!
Some of you might know the climb out of Inverness when yuo head south. Last year i went out for a spin in the car and cars were stuck 2/3rds of the way up it. I cruised past and darent stop.I shouldnt really admit to this but i did something naughty... i drove back into town and back up the hill again and passed them for the second time.smugtastic!
Well, spoke to my biking girlie chum today, lives in disaster area for snow, has plenty, and last Xmas had horrid time with being snow bound. Had snow tyres fixed this Tuesday and is soo happy today, not restricted at all and feeling very confident driving. Fitted on a skoda small car btw.
where is this disaster area for snow?
Troutwrestler, chains are to get you out of the shite, which they do well, then you take them off, you dont really drive in them, as they have a max speed of 30mph and cant be used on tarmac.
Even used like that, they can still give you a lesson in why snow tyres on the front alone is a bad idea.
You can use snow tyres on just the front, if you drive accordingly, but you cant then take them off and drive a car with balanced grip once you are no longer stuck.
Martinxyz - it's west of Halifax, on the moors, M62 area.
I've read lots of theory on here, most of which sounds reasonable. The fact remains that in my experience winter tyres - on the front only - have allowed me to drive my car in winter more effectively than having no winter tyres at all.
Agree with Stilltortoise. I've got them on the front only (rears on back order) and I've driven up and down hills in Yorkshire with ease. Amazing grip on the steepest of snow covered hills. However, as mentioned, the rear of the car will slide if you go round a corner too quickly so drive accordingly.
I had snow tyres fitted (all 4 for £270) last month as a replacement for the Auto Socks I used last year as I'll be driving to the Alps in March. I have to say I'm really impressed with them and reckon they've paid for themselves already - as having them on the car has made the difference between working and not working. The grip they provide on everything from lose powder to really compact snow is unbelievable.
What they won't do though is leapfrog jack-knifed lorries or abandoned cars so it still pays to monitor the traffic reports etc and stay at home if conditions dictate it.
can't be arsed to read all of that but here in Scandinavia everyone uses them and they make a really big difference.
Although I was in Oslo a few years ago, when the first (unforecast) snow fell. No different to been here, all you need is one who either hadn't changed tyres or just couldn't drive...
Just ordered a set of Pirelli's plus wheels from mytyres for £400, so we'll see if they manage to get them here in a reasonable time.
At the start of the week, their website was showing minimal stock for quite high prices. Today there seems to be a lot more in stock and the discounts seem to be back to what they were, if anyone is still looking.
Front wheel drive cars are deisgned with understeer as its safer, the premise being you use the correct amount of speed for the road conditions in the 1st place, if you loose the back end your boned with FWD (unless you think driving like a rally driver is appropriate for the public road)..
Dont agree with that.
Had to drive (Wifes Zafira) through fairly heavy snow for over 100 miles on Monday, drove with care and attention and appropriate speed. However on a roundabout the back end stepped out a fair old way. If I had let it spin out it would not have been that big a deal beacause my speed was slow enough and there was road room. However a quick turn into the oversteer and a moderate amount of throttle counteracted the skid since a small amount of drive from the front towards the skid brought the car back into line.
I agree it is far better to fit same all round which our car does (Pirelli P6000's, not winter tyres) but that does not mean you cannot control oversteer in a front wheel drive car if you are a decent enough driver and are a competent winter driver, which due to lack of snow experience is a lot of UK folks.
Someone told me today that it would be cheaper for the Government to provide everyone with snow tyres than to clear and grit the roads.
Oh and I agree with scotabroad. Some folks probably don't leave the house without flares and eperb.
I put snow tyres on the car earlier today, just in time for another dump of the white stuff. They are fantastic!
The snow only amounted to about 2", but managed to drive perfectly on fresh snow both up and down hills on roads I know I would have been spinning out on with the summer tyres.
i got my Khumo I'zen KW27's in early Nov, just in time for the frosts
£57 per end in a 205 55 16 94v xl /// M&S Snowflake marked ...so a full winter tyre
transformed the civic ..which was pants last year ( 2.2diesel)
no effect on economy, no excessive wear
tonnes of grip, fantastic braking ....
NEVER ever fit just 2 , scary things happen under braking ... its all 4 or none ....
NEVER ever fit just 2 , scary things happen under braking ... its all 4 or none ....
here we go again 
Auto Express magazine, 1-6 Dec 2010, Issue 1143, page 22
" Meanwhile, some insurers are failing to spot the benefit and are raising premiums. Auto Express subscriber David Gana, from Oldham, said Frizzell told him the "modification" of winter tyres for his Renault Laguna would hike his premium by £230.
And http://www.singletrackworld.com forum contributor Swalsey was surprised when he rang Admiral to see if his winter tyres would attract a discount. "It quoted an INCREASE of £22!" he fumed.
Neil Greig, diregtor of policy and research at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, said:"I'm surprised. Winter tyres'safety benefits are clear - I think they'd outweigh any additional costs."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/9251158.stm
"Are you insured for snow setbacks?
BBC Radio 4's Money Box
Saturday, 4 December 2010
Winter car-tyre confusion
With the heavy snow falls for two winters in succession many car owners are wondering if they should fit winter tyres, as they do in many colder European countries.
These tyres are made of a different rubber compound which stays flexible in freezing conditions and have a different tread which grips better in wet and icy conditions.
So will your car insurer approve? Or could it adversely affect your premium?
Money Box has been hearing from listeners whose insurers threatened to hike their premiums, or even terminate their cover, for having winter tyres fitted.
Chris Patience from the motoring organisation, the AA, and Malcolm Tarling from the ABI explain the issues. "
Interesting point on the insurance... haven't told mine that I've had different tyres fitted - will check policy to see if having different tyres fitted construes a 'modification'.
Re sheet ice the only thing that works is studded tyres that can bite, but these are destroyed on dry tarmac and destroy the road surface + creating dust/health issues.
Studs do not wear out on dry tarmac. In Finland winter tyres are compulsory from October to April I think, and almost everyone has studs, the only exceptions being BMWs and Mercs etc IIRc. They last very well.
It does wear the road surface with two distinct grooves opening up on older sections, but I think their tarmac is a bit different to ours anyway - it seems to be made of the local granite pebbles rather than the limestone we seem to use (if it is indeed limestone, I'm sure PP will know).
British roads are surfaced with granite chips as well.
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