So it’s coming into autumn/winter and I want to keep on camping. My current thoughts up til now have been to create a modular sleeping system, rather than buy a hefty sleeping back. So i’m just one final piece away from it.

So I currently have a snugpak chrysalis 2 which has been great for over the spring/summer, and is perfectly fine down to around 0C along with my silk liner. (I’ve also got a space blanket to wrap up in, just for the sake of it, never use it, but it’s there just incase.)

Any how, my next thoughts are just to buy an Alpkit Hunka which will, in my thoughts, allow me to go a good bit lower temp wise.

Thoughts here are that with something like this it allows me to have a sleep system that is flexible enough for winter and summer and even some bivvying during the summer months if it wanted to camp up in the hills with and be lightweight.

Anyhow, enough rambling, guess the question here is, would it be completely mental to use a liner + sleeping back + bivvy bag inside a tent in the winter months? Any negatives to this? condensation and the likes? Is the hunka enough to add a good bit of heat to the kit I mention? (guess, there is always the option of just sleeping with clothes on too should it be necessary.)

Any thoughts?

I use a thin ME bivvy bag inside a tent as I have an old Down bag with a non DWR pertex outer and have seen it collapse completely on numerous occasions from condensation raining down inside my VE25.

Having said that, the last time I camped on the fells must have been about 10 years ago.

its a +2 comfort bag.

i dont see what adding a bivvy inside a tent is going to achieve other than localised condensation wetting out your bag and perhaps less “volume” than the tent to heat up

it adds very little insulation.

IME when bivvying the bivvy does add something to the bag but i certainly wouldnt be going out far from town in winter with a 2 season bag and a bivvy … but then im in the north of scotland – perhaps the south coast is different.

Ive been cold in a -18 bag and bivvy up here before…..

I just bought a good winter bag – and use a system as you describe for autumn/summer/spring camping.

Aye it’s scotland i’m talking about, highlands/southern uplands.

Aye as I say, just a case of deciding what to do, I could just buy a bag, but it’s 50 quid v a lot more for a decent down winter bag.

Guess I could just do both and that covers me for all eventualities! 😆 Bit skint right now mind, hence the conundrum!

do you have to buy a down bag for winter ?

mines just a 45 quid hi gear- its been to hell and back and the only time ive been cold – i was bivvied in a snow hole at the puffer in 2010…… rumoured to be beyond the temp of my bag.

FWIW until you wrote skint – i was going to suggest one of the higher R value neoairs would be of more benifit than a bivvy to your warmth….. i have the original r2.5 neoair and i am always blown away by how warm and comfy it is. far better than the old prolite and much better at staying inflated than the old alpkit ones…..

Guess it’s bulk that’s my reluctance to buy a synthetic winter bag. The snug pak is about as bulky as i really want to get tbh.

my take on it was that the bulk was worth paying for when the downbag becomes next to useless when wet – and in scotland winters are generally wet and cold

its not alpine where its dry and cold…

fair comment, food for thought! 🙂 the wetness was also in my thoughts re the bivvy bag, ie that it’d be a (albeit poor) back up to a tent failure.

for sure – its all a compromise unless your spending big bucks

aye true!

As tempting as it is to spend lots of money on a shiny winter down bag, a layered system, as you mentioned, is going to give you a lot more flexibility.

If you’re concerned about bulk but not averse to sleeping in clothes, why not consider a fairly light down jacket, which can be had for £50 or less if you shop around (I got a good Hi-Tec one for £45 last year). Maybe some down trousers and a good base layer.

These will also be useful during the day, rather than sleeping bags which are only useful when… sleeping (duh).

You’re also less likely to get the down wet inside your synthetic bag (just keep it in a drybag when not wearing it), and you’re not putting all your eggs in one down basket.

I have an old down bag but it’s quite thin now; picked up a good Mountain Hardwear one recently in a Blacks sale but it’s probably not fully 3 season rated. Lamina 20 I think. It’s certainly no better rated than the SnugPak my daughter’s currently using for DofE expeditions, in Cairngorms last month and there was frost on the tent, all were cold and pretty miserable but not Rhona. I think some of them were using the base inflatable mats, but of course they simply lift you off the ground and allow cold air to seep under you, need a more baffled mat really.

You can get fleece liners that add a fair bit of insulation. Personally I stick the insulation on me (thermals), that way if i need to get up for a piss in the night I dont freeze.

Using thermals and a snugpak3 bag inside an army bivi has been fine over winter down here. Kinda funky to wake up snuggly with frost on the bag!

“I think some of them were using the base inflatable mats, but of course they simply lift you off the ground and allow cold air to seep under you, need a more baffled mat really”

cant agree more with this.

many of the camping “inflatables” out there would be better replaced with a closed cell mat – the occupant would be warmer….

The risk is that you move the Dew Point to within your sleeping system resulting in wetting out your bag.

Aye, she was using my trusty (had it since c. 1980) yellow karrimat – though she’s trying out a Vango composite one this weekend.. Old Karrimats are pretty low tech, but for the likes of expeditions like that, they’re bombproof and not that bad really.

Interesting thoughts, ta.

No worries about getting out for a piss, i’ve mastered the art of pissing into a bottle! 😆

Exped + good winter bag + silk liner + down jacket and I’m still cold on occasions.

Winter in Scotland is cold and damp, so take more of the ratings you see on bags with a pinch of salt, they probably hold true if you’re camping in Nepal, but not Scotland in January.

An exped type mat is almost essential if you struggle to sleep on a closed cell type.

I’ve got a vango aero matt that seems to be decent enough. decided to go for this instead of the cheap tubular ones I’ve been using. I seem to keep bursting those.

This one

Vango

the mrs has one of them.

she ditches it at the first chance if im not using my thermarest.

no R value speaks volumes to me.

its better than the non insulated tubulars though which are just columns of air convecting heat away from your body……it provides some insulation.

My experiance of the alpkit and kathmandu versions of those mats is that they are poor on comfort and poor on warmth when compared to a regular closed cell karrimat.

Peters EXPED is a great bit of kit but overkill for me and too much bulk/weight for the cost – the double up on the R-value didnt seem worth while to me – as im stuck with the bulk and weight all year as oppose to just taking a heavier bag for 4 months of the year.

Peters EXPED is a great bit of kit but overkill for me and too much bulk/weight for the cost – the double up on the R-value didnt seem worth while to me – as im stuck with the bulk and weight all year as oppose to just taking a heavier bag for 4 months of the year.

It’s not so much the warmth that I bought it for…it’s so much more comfortable than my thermarests. We both struggled to get even decent sleep in winter on the thermarests and were never truly comfortable. Spending over 12 hours on them at a time was just a PITA when we were eventually honest with ourselves.

First time using the expeds was a revelation. Well worth the small weight (and cost) penalty for us.

But yeah, if you can sleep well on a thermarest there isn’t any tangible benefit to an exped and a few downsides.

old style thermarest or a neoair though. the neoairs a world apart from the foam filled thermarest of old

I always used to take a Karrimat and a Thermarest when camping in Scotland in Winter. The Thermarest was for comfort and the Karrimat as a backup in case it punctured as the ground would be several degrees below zero, so wanted a backup.

Ah sorry, it’s old style thermarests I’ve got. We were looking at the x therm and all season neo airs, but plumped for the Synmat insead.

yeah i can see why – on paper they look great if you do alot of winter camping. how ever i do mostly summer- im a fair weather fairy when it comes togetting out my sleeping bag on a frosty morning 😀

trail_rat – Member
im a fair weather fairy

This is my problem! 😆 I’m pretty well set for fair weather, and a bit of rain and wind, down to about 0C. But below that in harsher condition. I guess as with all these things it’ll take a few times trial and error and some coldness till I sort.

I do like the sound of the thermals and down jacket aspect though.

Coldest night of last winter…it does get very very cold and you’ll regret not buying that slightly warmer bit of kit when you’re shivering 🙂

I use a bivi bag in a tent with a down bag and its fine and does keep me warmer. Condensation inside the bag never happens but this maybe because it’s a full Goretex thing that I bought from Snowdon Mouldings in the mid 80’s. I even zip it right up and all is fine. My sleeping bag does stay dry which is a good job as its an ancient Point Five thing that has got to be a decade older than the bivi bag.
Whether the system offers good value is another thing but I have my kit so I use it. Whether a less breathable bivi bag is any help is also debatable. A friend suffers condensation in his Hunka when I don’t but there are too many variable to be sure. Can you borrow a bag? I also agree that Karrimat is a good insulator albeit not as comfy for aching bones.

I tried a winter season camping a long time ago. I soon realised that winter is better spent planning trips for the following spring/summer/autumn.

Preferably in a warm pub with a few beers.

I’m very much an advocate of the layered system all year round for pure versatility. Winter backpacking, I’ll use a good quality lightweight down bag (sub 1kg) + lightweight down jacket + tomorrow’s baselayers. Also use a winter closed cell foam mat for serious outings. Wearing a clean dry beanie in bed will help, make a hot water bottle out of ice or stream water, will serve you as purified water the next day. Buy stuff on eBay to save money. Down vs synthetic? tough one really, guess preference comes from experience.
If we’re winter campsite camping then I’ll take all the pleasures, thermarest, big winter bag.